Jan opened the meeting by raising concerns about communication responsiveness, noting that emails requesting pre-meeting materials had gone unanswered (01:04). He emphasized wanting to share design examples with collaborators ahead of meetings for broader input. James acknowledged the challenge and agreed that WhatsApp would be a more reliable channel going forward for quick communication and sharing artifacts before meetings (01:51).
Jan also expressed that he'd noticed the design direction occasionally drifting from what was discussed in previous meetings, and wanted a clearer way to reference past agreements (04:23). James walked through the artifacts system on the project website, where all meeting summaries, transcripts, and video recordings live and can be shared with AI tools for reference (05:52).
James explained that IRIS is currently redesigning the project management system to connect these meeting artifacts directly to ClickUp for task tracking (06:20). Right now there's a disconnect between the artifacts on the website and the internal task management system, which contributes to the sense of things slipping. This integration work is in progress and should resolve the coordination gap soon.
[technology="Collaboration Management Tools"]
The team reviewed the plan leading up to launch, working around Jan's three-week holiday and the end-of-August funding deadline (08:38). James outlined the phased approach:
James emphasized that building in Webflow [tag="webflow"] keeps everything highly editable, so fonts, colors, and parameters can still be adjusted after Jan returns with fresh eyes (14:20).
By next Thursday's meeting, the team aims to have (17:44):
James shared the latest homepage design from Munya, showing progress on page feel, colors, image textures, and integration of real people (19:00). Jan responded that the design represents "a real step forward" with a clean, clear tone he appreciates.
Jan's main feedback centered on wanting the background to stay bright and white rather than trending darker (20:08). He referenced the Google search page as a directional touchstone — not to replicate it, but for its bright, simple, inviting quality with bold, saturated primary colors (24:40).
The paradigm framing supports this: the site tells a story of an old paradigm (darker) giving way to a new pro-social paradigm (bright, fresh) (25:56). Jan felt the current mix of dark tones with yellow was blending these too much, weakening the contrast needed to communicate the shift.
James experimented live with:
Jan confirmed the color palette is working well — red, green, blue, yellow — and the tension is about play between bright and dark, and getting saturation right (29:20). "Bold and fresh" became the guiding phrase (37:00).
Jan approved the use of real photos and people, especially for the corporate/executive audience — "an executive goes on this page and feels, this is my page" (32:31). James suggested adding subtle texture to solid color blocks (like the yellow) to give them more depth, and exploring video in key places for aliveness — including aerial earth imagery that connects to the planetary work without making it feel like an "ideology page" (38:41, 40:37).
The current design shows the opening framing about relational performance and "Four Design Mechanisms for Cooperative Performance" as flip-cards revealing more on hover (22:44). Jan wants to confirm how the audience routing (researcher / educator / policymaker) integrates into the homepage flow — this is still to be resolved beyond pure visual design.
Jan reinforced that the site's biggest challenge is conveying paradigm shift in a way people can grasp, while also ensuring AI systems can read and understand the content (44:00). James explained the approach — sometimes called AIO or GEO (generative engine optimization) — which involves:
This ensures "pro-social market economy" as a concept becomes clearly defined and discoverable across AI-driven search (46:24).
James committed to generating a site map with wireframes so Jan can click through and review the full content structure before leaving (42:24). Missing content, examples, or research references will be flagged with a yellow border so Jan knows what to provide. All artifacts (except Figma files, which need direct access) will be linked from the project WhatsApp thread.
Jan encountered login issues creating a Figma account (13:01). Once resolved, he'll be able to view live design updates and share the file with 2-3 collaborators for outside input during Tuesday's meeting (48:12).
James Redenbaugh
Jan Pfister
Jan opened the meeting by raising concerns about communication responsiveness, noting that emails requesting pre-meeting materials had gone unanswered (01:04). He emphasized wanting to share design examples with collaborators ahead of meetings for broader input. James acknowledged the challenge and agreed that WhatsApp would be a more reliable channel going forward for quick communication and sharing artifacts before meetings (01:51).
Jan also expressed that he'd noticed the design direction occasionally drifting from what was discussed in previous meetings, and wanted a clearer way to reference past agreements (04:23). James walked through the artifacts system on the project website, where all meeting summaries, transcripts, and video recordings live and can be shared with AI tools for reference (05:52).
James explained that IRIS is currently redesigning the project management system to connect these meeting artifacts directly to ClickUp for task tracking (06:20). Right now there's a disconnect between the artifacts on the website and the internal task management system, which contributes to the sense of things slipping. This integration work is in progress and should resolve the coordination gap soon.
[technology="Collaboration Management Tools"]
The team reviewed the plan leading up to launch, working around Jan's three-week holiday and the end-of-August funding deadline (08:38). James outlined the phased approach:
James emphasized that building in Webflow [tag="webflow"] keeps everything highly editable, so fonts, colors, and parameters can still be adjusted after Jan returns with fresh eyes (14:20).
By next Thursday's meeting, the team aims to have (17:44):
James shared the latest homepage design from Munya, showing progress on page feel, colors, image textures, and integration of real people (19:00). Jan responded that the design represents "a real step forward" with a clean, clear tone he appreciates.
Jan's main feedback centered on wanting the background to stay bright and white rather than trending darker (20:08). He referenced the Google search page as a directional touchstone — not to replicate it, but for its bright, simple, inviting quality with bold, saturated primary colors (24:40).
The paradigm framing supports this: the site tells a story of an old paradigm (darker) giving way to a new pro-social paradigm (bright, fresh) (25:56). Jan felt the current mix of dark tones with yellow was blending these too much, weakening the contrast needed to communicate the shift.
James experimented live with:
Jan confirmed the color palette is working well — red, green, blue, yellow — and the tension is about play between bright and dark, and getting saturation right (29:20). "Bold and fresh" became the guiding phrase (37:00).
Jan approved the use of real photos and people, especially for the corporate/executive audience — "an executive goes on this page and feels, this is my page" (32:31). James suggested adding subtle texture to solid color blocks (like the yellow) to give them more depth, and exploring video in key places for aliveness — including aerial earth imagery that connects to the planetary work without making it feel like an "ideology page" (38:41, 40:37).
The current design shows the opening framing about relational performance and "Four Design Mechanisms for Cooperative Performance" as flip-cards revealing more on hover (22:44). Jan wants to confirm how the audience routing (researcher / educator / policymaker) integrates into the homepage flow — this is still to be resolved beyond pure visual design.
Jan reinforced that the site's biggest challenge is conveying paradigm shift in a way people can grasp, while also ensuring AI systems can read and understand the content (44:00). James explained the approach — sometimes called AIO or GEO (generative engine optimization) — which involves:
This ensures "pro-social market economy" as a concept becomes clearly defined and discoverable across AI-driven search (46:24).
James committed to generating a site map with wireframes so Jan can click through and review the full content structure before leaving (42:24). Missing content, examples, or research references will be flagged with a yellow border so Jan knows what to provide. All artifacts (except Figma files, which need direct access) will be linked from the project WhatsApp thread.
Jan encountered login issues creating a Figma account (13:01). Once resolved, he'll be able to view live design updates and share the file with 2-3 collaborators for outside input during Tuesday's meeting (48:12).
James Redenbaugh
Jan Pfister
Switch primary communication to WhatsApp and share meeting artifacts and design previews before each meeting
Redeploy the project timeline page and share updated plan with Jan
Resolve Jan's Figma account login issues and confirm he has working access
Create Figma account and share access with 2–3 collaborators for Tuesday design review
Refine homepage design with brighter white background, more saturated primary colors, and stronger bright-to-dark contrast
Add subtle texture to yellow color blocks and explore video integration in key homepage sections
Update the four design mechanisms figure with more vibrant colors
Generate comprehensive site map with wireframes flagging missing content areas in yellow for Jan's review before July 13 departure
Continue integrating meeting artifacts into ClickUp for connected task management
Provide research papers and resource links to James for incorporation into the PSME site
Review site map and content wireframes before July 13 departure and flag missing content
Bring 2–3 collaborators to Tuesday's meeting for broader design feedback session
Attend Tuesday and Thursday iterative review meetings leading to style guide and homepage sign-off by next Thursday
Design and develop an 8-page informational website for the Pro-Social Market Economy paradigm. Site serves as credible resource for executives, researchers, practitioners, and policymakers explaining how economic performance emerges from relational quality. Core structure includes: Home (paradigm hub with world-building metaphor visualization featuring weaving/tapestry metaphor to illustrate relational fields), Explore the Paradigm (interactive overview), Research and Resources (CMS-driven publications with chronological mapping of intellectual history from Ostrom through Wilson to current work, external journal links and PDFs), Practice and Policy (CDP diagnostics - four design mechanisms functioning as both diagnostic and interventionist tools), People, News and Events (simple calendar), Get Involved, and Evaluation and Tools. Built in Webflow with Airtable backend synced via Whalesync for easy content management. HOMEPAGE ANIMATION CONCEPT (as of 2026-06-26): Three-layer attention-capturing animation illustrating paradigm shift through identification across scales - (1) Planet at base moving from depleted to regenerative, (2) Individual at center moving from isolated to connected, (3) Organization/system structures on periphery moving from rigid grid to fluid interconnected. Animation should make visible how individual identification shifts from self/immediate team to successively larger groups (organization, market, planet), dissolving trade-offs between scales (38:14, 41:06). VISUAL FRAMEWORKS: Five Scales of Relationship (individual, group, organization, market, planetary) and Seven Performance Domains (financial, compliance, sustainability, well-being, resilience, agility, societal effects) as foundational visualization structures (06:00). Performance domains animate functionally not just as overlay swap - well-being's jagged graph leveling, resilience shifting from shattered to flexible, agility from linear to infinity loop, societal effects from walled off to radiating. Terminology refined to "effects on performance dimensions" rather than "what is measured" to clarify management framework vs measurement tool focus (43:00). VISUAL STRATEGY: Complementary aesthetics within one identity - scholarly sections with grounded research feel (serif headlines, typeset aesthetic evoking academic conferences), practitioner sections with fresh/modern feel (sans serif headlines, clean blue/red color palette), achieved through subtle shifts in typography and color rather than separate designs. Strategic nature imagery as supportive presence. Four design mechanisms need clear icons/visualizations to make diagnostic/interventionist framework approachable. CONCRETE GRAPHICS REQUIRED: Five scales and seven performance domains need recognizable symbolic elements rather than abstract treatments - practitioners arriving at page must immediately understand content (33:00, 39:53). Planet illustration style (depleted → regenerative) established as appropriate concreteness level. Sophisticated presentation maintaining recognizable symbols for people, groups, structures. KEY MESSAGING: This is cultural evolution of existing market economy, not alternative economy - markets where pro-sociality becomes driving force of value creation. Site must function as experience of paradigm shift itself - visitors should feel contrast between stressful fragile world of dominant paradigm and stable peaceful world of pro-social paradigm. Performance dimension (creativity, resilience, sustainability, economic outcomes) must remain central throughout. Content must be AI-accessible with accurate structure for indexing. TIMELINE CORRECTION (as of 2026-07-05): Heavy design work continues through next week to finalize direction before Jan's three-week holiday (July 13 - August 2). Build phase in Webflow starts during Jan's absence with locked design. August 4-8 continues build and refinement. August 11-15 for review, feedback rounds, and launch targeting end of August funding deadline (08:38, 14:20). Site map with wireframes to be generated for Jan's review before departure, flagging missing content areas (42:24). All content highly editable in Webflow allowing font/color/parameter adjustments after Jan returns (14:20). DESIGN DIRECTION (as of 2026-07-05): Background stays bright white rather than trending darker, referencing Google search page brightness and bold saturated primary colors (20:08, 24:40). Color palette confirmed: red, green, blue, yellow with "bold and fresh" as guiding direction (29:20, 37:00). Site tells story of old paradigm (darker) giving way to new pro-social paradigm (bright, fresh) requiring strong contrast (25:56). Subtle texture to be added to solid color blocks for depth, video integration in key places for aliveness including aerial earth imagery (38:41, 40:37). Real photos and people approved especially for corporate/executive audience (32:31). Four-mechanism figure needs more vibrant colors (31:48). DESIGN REFINEMENT (as of 2026-07-08): Jan's external reviewers provided clear directional feedback - current explorations by Munia are strong on details and softer textures but need more edgy, bold, straight-to-the-point quality from earlier editorial-style direction to communicate grounded field that's here to stay rather than new idea in magazine (13:27, 15:32). Bright yellow, red, green repositioned as accent/support colors only rather than dominant backgrounds (16:59). Darker blue singled out as particularly strong for grounding, especially as background for writing-heavy sections. Primary backgrounds: dark blue, white, gray, or image. Bright colors used as accents in illustrations, tags, borders, card details. Overall goal: more concrete, less abstract. Typography strategy refined - serif font used in reserved, intentional ways as accent across site rather than wholesale switch on one page. Color usage stays consistent site-wide with variation introduced through visualized content rather than structural shifts (24:01). All website colors built as variables in Webflow allowing global updates (21:09). Consistent main frame throughout site with variation brought in through individual papers/citations shown as images within consistent containers (23:03). NEXT ITERATION DIRECTION (as of 2026-07-08): Exploring bolder fonts possibly reviving earlier bolder primary font, sharper corners moving away from heavily-rounded feel to introduce more impact, darker blue brought back as grounding background color, bright colors repositioned as accents only (36:00). Logo development initiated reflecting planet-economy connection without green-activist framing (36:00). AI OPTIMIZATION: Content structured for AI readability through AIO/GEO (generative engine optimization) - properly structured headlines, tags, semantic markup, crawlable linked research. Research papers hosted directly on site when external sources block bots while maintaining links to originals. Ensures "pro-social market economy" becomes clearly defined and discoverable across AI-driven search (44:00, 46:24). NEXT MILESTONE: 100% alignment on style guide, agreed direction on graphics/illustrations, and sign-off on homepage design by July 11 meeting before Jan's departure (17:44).
Develop comprehensive brand identity for Pro-Social Market Economy including visual language, typography, color palette, and aesthetic direction that balances credibility for business executives with accessibility for broader audiences. Process includes brand questionnaire exploration, metaphor development (flat world/round world, parallel worlds), philosophical stream mapping, and creation of visual precedents. Visual direction should communicate paradigm shift from individual optimization to relational management while feeling fresh, professional, and modern (not dated/yellowed). Core brand metaphor: weaving/tapestry representing relational fields - adaptable across icons, illustrations, and diagrams in both subtle and bold expressions. COLOR DIRECTION (as of 2026-07-05): Primary palette confirmed as red, green, blue, yellow with bold, saturated tones inspired by Google's bright, simple, inviting quality (24:40, 29:20). Blue as primary entrepreneurial tone with red and gold accents. Avoiding excess green to prevent "green ideology" signaling - reserve green only for specific sustainability contexts. Bright, clean, uniform white backgrounds required - no trending darker (20:08). Yellow adjusted toward more saturated, sunny tone rather than muted/dark (34:15). "Bold and fresh" established as guiding direction (37:00). Strong contrast between old paradigm (darker) and new pro-social paradigm (bright, fresh) essential to visual storytelling (25:56). COLOR REFINEMENT (as of 2026-07-08): Bright yellow, red, green repositioned as accent/support colors only rather than dominant backgrounds following Jan's external reviewer feedback (16:59). Darker blue singled out as particularly strong for grounding, especially as background for writing-heavy sections. Primary backgrounds established as dark blue, white, gray, or image. Bright colors used as accents in illustrations, tags, borders, card details. Overall goal: more concrete, less abstract. All website colors built as variables in Webflow allowing global updates (21:09). TYPOGRAPHY STRATEGY (as of 2026-07-01): Variable fonts unified into working Figma style guide (08:23). Moondial Narrow variable sans-serif for modern, versatile, Scandinavian feel with precise weight control. Paired with clean, readable variable serif font suited to academic dimension. Differentiate scholarly vs business sides through font pairing - serif headlines for scholarly sections (evoking academic conference, typeset, paper-like feel), sans serif headlines for business/practitioner sections. Body fonts remain consistent across both to maintain visual unity. Tags and labels consistent throughout. TYPOGRAPHY REFINEMENT (as of 2026-07-08): Serif font repositioned as reserved, intentional accent across site rather than wholesale switch on scholarly page to avoid mixed identity concern (23:03). Color usage stays consistent site-wide with variation introduced through visualized content (individual papers/citations shown as images within consistent containers) rather than structural shifts (24:01). Exploring bolder fonts possibly reviving earlier bolder primary font and sharper corners moving away from heavily-rounded feel to introduce more impact (36:00). IMAGERY APPROACH: Moving away from AI-generated imagery toward original illustrative language. Monya developing simple, geometric domain illustrations that lend themselves to animation - connections forming, geometries shifting, layers expanding on hover rather than static image swaps (03:00). Hybrid strategy using real photography for landscapes, mountains, Earth imagery where authenticity matters - approved especially for corporate/executive audience (32:31). Strategic use of real imagery and video for bringing paradigm shift to life deeper on page (38:41, 40:37). Avoiding overly "stocky" feel while leveraging appropriate photography and video for dimensionality. Hero section should not overwhelm with imagery - geometry is inclusive and lets people find own meaning. Real imagery, intelligently generated visuals, and curated stock deeper on page to make paradigm shift tangible (12:10, 20:19). Subtle texture to be added to solid color blocks for depth (38:41). VISUAL REQUIREMENTS: Concrete rather than abstract - practitioners must immediately understand content without heavy cognitive work (33:00). Recognizable symbols (people, groups, structures) while maintaining sophisticated presentation. Planet illustration (depleted → regenerative) established as right level of concreteness and clarity. Nature imagery (trees, water, ecosystems) as supportive presence connecting to sustainability. Circular graphics preferred over squared grids to represent how relationships operate. Figures should almost always include humans. Must feel distinct from Prosocial World's dark aesthetic. More contrast and brightness needed - avoiding muted/dark palettes from previous IRIS projects. STYLE DIRECTION CONVERGENCE: Business side treatment from "relational field" direction (blue/red color, clean font) paired with scholarly side treatment featuring typeset aesthetic. Eight homepage mockup variations developed spanning conventional to experimental to seed visual field. Latest homepage design from Munya represents "a real step forward" with clean, clear tone (19:00). Jan to review in Figma with direct commenting access and share with 2-3 collaborators for broader input (13:11, 48:12). DESIGN DIRECTION SHIFT (as of 2026-07-08): Jan's external reviewers confirmed current explorations by Munia are shaping nicely with strong details and softer textures but need more edgy, bold, straight-to-the-point quality from earlier editorial-style direction. Concern that current softness risks reading as "new idea we're writing about in a magazine this week" rather than grounded field that's here to stay (13:27, 15:32). Resolved through business vs. academic balance - business side carries bolder, more radical energy while academic side stays quieter and deeper, both communicating permanence and rigor (15:51). Next iteration explores bolder fonts, sharper corners, darker blue grounding (36:00). NEXT MILESTONE: 100% alignment on style guide by July 11 meeting before Jan's departure (17:44).
Develop sophisticated parametric animation for PSME website homepage that serves as attention-capturing visualization of paradigm shift from individual optimization to relational management. Animation centers on three concrete layers illustrating identification shift across scales: (1) Planet at base - depleted ecosystem transitioning to regenerative thriving Earth, (2) Individual at center - isolated figure moving to connected being within relational field, (3) Organization/system structures on periphery - rigid grid structures dissolving into fluid interconnected networks (38:14, 41:06).
CONCEPTUAL FOUNDATION: Animation should make visible how individual identification expands from self/immediate team (making decisions at cost of larger systems) to successively larger groups (organization, market, planet) as part of themselves, dissolving trade-offs between scales. This identification shift is the core narrative distinguishing old paradigm from new (41:06).
VISUAL FRAMEWORKS TO ANIMATE: Five Scales of Relationship (individual, group, organization, market, planetary) and Seven Performance Domains (financial, compliance, sustainability, well-being, resilience, agility, societal effects) as foundational structures (06:00). Each performance domain requires functional animation showing actual change - well-being's jagged graph leveling out, resilience shifting from shattered to flexible, agility moving from linear to infinity loop, societal effects transitioning from walled off to radiating outward.
DESIGN REQUIREMENTS: Concrete rather than abstract - use recognizable symbols for people, groups, structures while maintaining sophisticated presentation. Planet illustration style (depleted → regenerative) established as appropriate concreteness benchmark (33:00). Must integrate seamlessly with brand direction: blue/red color palette, bright clean backgrounds, weaving/tapestry metaphor as core visual language. Simple geometric domain illustrations allow connections to form, geometries to shift, layers to expand on hover rather than static image swaps (03:00). Experimenting with overlaying different domains into single composite image - circular quality reinforces scientific microscope/telescope-like framing. Animation may be developed using Grasshopper for parametric geometric logic then translated to interactive JavaScript in Webflow.
TERMINOLOGY: Frame performance domains as "effects on performance dimensions" to clarify this is management framework not measurement tool (43:00). Animation should communicate paradigm shift as cultural evolution of existing market economy where pro-sociality becomes driving force, not alternative economy model.
DEVELOPMENT APPROACH (as of 2026-07-01): Monya developing simplified geometric illustrations that lend themselves well to animation potential (03:00). James experimenting with composite overlays and hover interactions. Hero section animation should be inclusive and non-overwhelming - letting visitors find own meaning. Strategic balance between geometric abstraction in hero and more literal real-world imagery deeper on page.
DELIVERABLES: Animation storyboard, style frames showing three-layer transitions, functional prototype for homepage integration, documentation of parametric logic for future adaptations.
Improve communication responsiveness and project coordination through two parallel workstreams: (1) Switch primary client communication to WhatsApp for more reliable quick exchanges and artifact sharing before meetings, and (2) Integrate meeting artifacts (summaries, transcripts, recordings) directly into ClickUp for connected task management. Currently there's a disconnect between artifacts living on the project website and internal task tracking in ClickUp, contributing to coordination gaps and design direction drift (04:23, 06:20). Integration will allow meeting decisions to flow directly into task context, reducing slippage between what was discussed and what gets implemented. All meeting artifacts (except Figma files requiring direct access) will be linked from project WhatsApp thread for easy reference (10:16). This integration work is part of IRIS's broader redesign of their project management system to better connect meeting outcomes with execution.
Generate comprehensive site map with wireframes showing full content structure for 8-page PSME website, allowing Jan to click through and review before his July 13 departure. Missing content areas (examples, research references, resource links) will be flagged with yellow borders so Jan knows what to provide (42:24). Includes audience routing integration (researcher/educator/policymaker pathways) into homepage flow beyond pure visual design (22:44). Site map supports both human review and AI optimization - ensuring proper semantic structure, crawlable linked research, and hosting of research papers directly on site when external sources block bots while maintaining links to originals (44:00, 46:24). Content structure must convey paradigm shift clearly while remaining AI-readable for GEO/AIO (generative engine optimization). Site map will be delivered in two formats: clickable online version and imported into Figma for direct commenting (26:58, 27:04). Munia consolidating all latest work in dedicated "latest" board within Figma with older iterations moved aside (30:28). Jan encouraged to leave comments directly on boards indicating which pages, details, or aspects resonate most. Deliverable needed before Jan's departure for content review and gap identification.
00:00:07
James Redenbaugh: Camera set up.
00:00:13
Jan Pfister: Can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you. Hello?
00:00:23
James Redenbaugh: I'm just getting my camera set up here. One sec. Hi there. How's it going?
00:00:48
Jan Pfister: Somehow the connection is. I think not.
00:00:50
James Redenbaugh: This meeting is being recorded.
00:00:58
Jan Pfister: Maybe now. Yes.
00:01:00
James Redenbaugh: Is it good now?
00:01:01
Jan Pfister: Yeah, now it's good.
00:01:03
James Redenbaugh: Cool.
00:01:04
Jan Pfister: Good. Yeah, it's going well in general. Yes. So finishing up certain things. I just wonder, did you see my email? Because the thing is, I'm writing you emails, I never get an answer. So I sent you yesterday an email whether you could send me, you know, a few examples beforehand that I could discuss it with somebody. It is James Redenbaugh. Right. That's your email. Because I said yesterday and I sent you today another email. And you know, last time when I had this meeting with my group, I sent you also emails, but I seem, you seem difficult to reach. Is it easier by WhatsApp or something or.
00:01:49
James Redenbaugh: I mean, WhatsApp. Much easier, if you don't mind.
00:01:51
Jan Pfister: Sorry. Sorry.
00:01:54
James Redenbaugh: Is much easier.
00:01:55
Jan Pfister: Yeah. Should we do this? Because it is. Then we can. Because I would have had somebody I wanted to show, you know, with what we do, so to. Just to hear different people.
00:02:08
James Redenbaugh: Yeah.
00:02:08
Jan Pfister: Good. Let me, you know, there is an issue with the connection. I don't know what it is it makes on my side. Like, is it.
00:02:20
James Redenbaugh: Let me see.
00:02:41
Jan Pfister: It. Yep.
00:03:15
James Redenbaugh: Is this better?
00:03:16
Jan Pfister: Yes. Yeah, that's better. That's good. Okay, good. So I guess Your phone is plus one us and then.
00:03:26
James Redenbaugh: Yes. 760937 0227. Yeah, I need to get better. I mean, spam filtering.
00:03:48
Jan Pfister: I'm just, I guess it would, would be, I mean, I'm asking. Not too much, I guess, to, to send something beforehand.
00:03:56
James Redenbaugh: Right.
00:03:56
Jan Pfister: That's. No, no, I mean, assume that it is. Okay. So that, that.
00:04:02
James Redenbaugh: Yeah.
00:04:02
Jan Pfister: Okay. So. Hi, James.
00:04:04
James Redenbaugh: No, please, I just, I, I don't mind requests and communications and.
00:04:10
Jan Pfister: Yes, no, it's good. I mean, the thing is I, I, I really enjoy working with you, but I also would like to get the project forward.
00:04:23
James Redenbaugh: Yeah.
00:04:23
Jan Pfister: And I feel, you know, kind of, I, I must say this because I think it's good if we kind of are open. I just felt a few times now that I kind of, and I said it last time that I said a few things and then not next time. I felt the direction did go in a different direction. And, and I think what would be cool is I guess all our calls are somewhere recorded, isn't it? Because then I can go also myself to see again what we actually agreed on. Just that I. Because I think we are developing here over two months kind of ideas and I just want to actually not forget myself. What I'm. What we talked about.
00:05:01
James Redenbaugh: Yeah, totally. Yes. Everything is here. Are. It's an odd URL. I call it brand website for some reason. But all the meeting artifacts are there and. The. There's a link to the video file. I know that could be inconvenient and so I can actually add the links to the Fireflies player. But all the meeting summaries are there and the transcripts are there as well.
00:05:52
Jan Pfister: So now I have it. That's actually much better on WhatsApp I think to not lose it somewhere.
00:05:58
James Redenbaugh: Yes.
00:05:58
Jan Pfister: So if I want to go to a meeting transcript from the past and I just go to. Where do I go Then I go to.
00:06:09
James Redenbaugh: There's artifacts.
00:06:11
Jan Pfister: Yeah.
00:06:13
James Redenbaugh: And then any of those artifacts, you open those up and you scroll down to the transcript.
00:06:20
Jan Pfister: Oh, okay. This. Each of these is a meeting basically. Yes. Good. Yeah.
00:06:26
James Redenbaugh: And you can also share the link to these artifacts with your AI if you want to have it find something particular. They're AI friendly. And one thing I'm working on for ourselves and part of why you're sensing this. Management difficulty I might say is we're in the midst of redesigning our project management system to utilize these artifacts. But right now they're not connected to. To our ClickUp system where we manage the projects soon when these artifacts create tasks like right now these tasks exist on the website and I look at them and I see them. But we have a whole project management system where we keep track of everything that we need to do. And there's a disconnect right now. So soon it's all going to be because.
00:07:33
Jan Pfister: Yes, because that's good. Okay so then we gonna now put these things together.
00:07:39
James Redenbaugh: Yeah, yeah.
00:07:40
Jan Pfister: Yes, good now because I. I remember just because we had such I think good discussions before, you know about some things about academic page front things, color fonts, all these things and, and how to set up and just that it doesn't get locked. All good.
00:08:04
James Redenbaugh: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It was also hard to. To restart my brain after the. After the honeymoon and remember what it. What is. What is website.
00:08:17
Jan Pfister: Yeah, yeah, I get it. I. I know the problem. I'm already. Because I'm gonna now go for three weeks and I'm completely exhausted from all the stuff that I had to do because it was really busy times and I know already when you go to three weeks is quite long. I mean for your. For US standards unbearable.
00:08:37
James Redenbaugh: Yeah.
00:08:38
Jan Pfister: But then I know when you come back It's a tough one, but. Yeah, anyway. But I think we just need to get it. Get on with it. It's also. So I have funding till the end of August and. Yeah, and it needs to be done earlier than that. That, that we get it and then we see where we are and what we can do. You know, also for the maintenance afterwards. Because. Yeah, let's. Let's see what we get now with what we do and then. Yeah, that's the plan.
00:09:12
James Redenbaugh: Great. Awesome. Well, should we start by looking at our plan and timeline or do you want to see the latest on the website?
00:09:29
Jan Pfister: Yeah, maybe we can start with a. With a. With a plan again as it's kind of. So it's today and then.
00:09:44
James Redenbaugh: Exactly. Great. Let me bring this up one sec. Page deployment failed. Let me try to redeploy this. Here. We can just look at it on my machine.
00:10:16
Jan Pfister: It. Yeah, maybe that, that might be a good way if you could, you know, before the meetings. So kind of even if it's an hour or two hours before, I guess it's anyway your morning. But if you can send me something so I could. Could have a look before and then kind of coming to the meeting and have already looked at it.
00:11:14
James Redenbaugh: Totally. Yeah. One second. I'm just fixing something in this plan. And I can send this to you. And let me also make sure that you have access to the Figma file. I'm sharing this on WhatsApp, so you should be able to see what we're creating there and leave comments. Sorry, one second.
00:13:01
Jan Pfister: Some reason it doesn't let me log in.
00:13:06
James Redenbaugh: Oh, you might need to create a Figma account.
00:13:11
Jan Pfister: That's what I just did. But then it says not found.
00:13:41
James Redenbaugh: Okay.
00:13:46
Jan Pfister: No.
00:13:52
James Redenbaugh: So we have these weeks until we want to launch. You're going to be away these weeks? We are right here. And here's how I'm envisioning it playing out. We want to do as much design as we can before you leave so that we feel really confident on the direction that we're moving and can get the. The bulk of what we're doing done while you're gone. And we'll begin building in webflow while you're done. And when you're back, we can still have opportunity to review the design, change things, tweak things while we're building in webflow. And so this will be a big week. Next week will be a big week. And August four to eight will be a big week. And then 11, 15. 11 To 15, we'll do a review and launch. And you can send it around and get, get feedback and I mean you can send. As soon as you're back, you could send around what, what we have. Get feedback as you like and we'll bring it all together. And the way that we, we build in webflow is everything stays very highly editable. So if we decide to swap out a font or change colors or change certain parameters, that'll be easy to do. Yeah.
00:15:54
Jan Pfister: So it's a bit unfortunate that my holiday is kind of in the middle of this whole process, but maybe it is a good thing also. I don't know. Let's see.
00:16:04
James Redenbaugh: Yeah.
00:16:05
Jan Pfister: Yeah. So if we decide next week, quite a, quite a bit more and yeah, there is a lot of input already.
00:16:12
James Redenbaugh: So. Yeah. And you know, honestly, if we only had four weeks, they would be four busy weeks. But, but we could get this done. So it will, it'll be good.
00:16:33
Jan Pfister: Okay.
00:16:34
James Redenbaugh: And you'll get to come back with fresh eyes and really see what works and what doesn't. And we'll polish it up and tweak things and then get it launched.
00:16:47
Jan Pfister: Sounds excellent. Good. Yes.
00:16:51
James Redenbaugh: Cool.
00:16:52
Jan Pfister: So, and just to understand. So until next week, kind of basically today, in a week, what we have kind of agreed. Or maybe next Thursday, I guess because. Because that's the earliest time that you can meet, isn't it?
00:17:09
James Redenbaugh: The earliest time that I can.
00:17:11
Jan Pfister: Fridays is. That's kind of the time. The earliest that you can meet an hour earlier is difficult for you.
00:17:19
James Redenbaugh: An hour earlier from. Than this.
00:17:23
Jan Pfister: Yes.
00:17:25
James Redenbaugh: Or I could. If you, if you need me to.
00:17:27
Jan Pfister: Yeah. No, or I mean basically next Thursday is then the last day. Then I can meet anytime.
00:17:33
James Redenbaugh: Okay.
00:17:34
Jan Pfister: Yeah, but, but by next Thursday, basically, what, what is it that we need to kind of get agreed on?
00:17:44
James Redenbaugh: Yeah, great question. So we want to be 100% on our style guide. We want to be aligned on the directions for the graphics and get sign off from you on. The design of the homepage show just this. So essentially having you look at what we have and say, yeah, this is great, let's continue this and, and design out the rest of the site. So hopefully you like what we show you today and then we'll continue it next week and, and get a final sign off on Thursday.
00:18:44
Jan Pfister: Good. Yes, sounds good.
00:18:50
James Redenbaugh: So. First of all, we're, we're going to come back to these with more color and the things that we talked about last week, that's still in development, but Munya's been focusing on the page design and feel and colors and application of everything that we've talked about. So Picture this. Plus those graphics icons, illustration. And yeah, she's playing with some really nice image textures. Bringing more people, real images and aliveness into things. It's bright, clean, colorful, not too colorful, not too green. And yeah, I'm curious to get your impression.
00:20:08
Jan Pfister: Yeah, that's a real step forward. I think that now this starts forming. Kind of a bit different, you know, as I had it in mind from what we discussed. I really like the clean setup, you know, clean and clear and the tone in that sense. What I. But I kind of said now it's that it's still kind of the background is going now into the dark. Right. So kind of. And that's. Yeah, that's. I think I would like to see a version here where this, you know, where the main theme is still white. As we said before. I mean, generally this looks. Looks much better. Sorry. That's good. But to go with the idea that we had from earlier, whether the color setting could be brighter and a bit kind of as we discussed when we selected the colors there in that call, a bit kind of more like even. Even a bit more fresher. Like the Google colors. Kind of as I try, you know, to have different versions. And what else would there be? Yeah, if you can just. Can just open it a bit or kind of zooming in. So how would it go? So if. If you go from top down, it's kind of. It starts how pro social the time. So performance is relational in an international. In their interim, performance no longer comes from optimizing. It emerges from the quality of duration that connect them. Many of today's defining areas. Yeah, that looks nice. Good. Then four design mechanisms for cooperative performance.
00:22:43
James Redenbaugh: So these would be.
00:22:44
Jan Pfister: This is now. Yeah, so this is now thought that would now be the page. Would that be the front? Or what would that be? Or that would be the explanation for the practitioners.
00:22:58
James Redenbaugh: These would be cards that would flip on hover to reveal more information.
00:23:09
Jan Pfister: Yeah. And you know when we said kind of you go to the page and then you have something that is quite revealing and then you select researcher, educator versus policymakers. Or we are not there. We are now just kind of the design. Right. That's what we are. You're looking.
00:23:31
James Redenbaugh: Yeah, yeah. Focusing mainly on the. On the design here. And then we'll apply it to the site as a whole and. Make sure we have the right flow.
00:23:56
Jan Pfister: Yeah, I mean, I like this much better. Definitely. And the thing is, it would have been really good to discuss it with two people because I want to hold with different opinions. The only. Do you See what I'm, what I mean with it kind of, you know, I want to kind of. So if you think I don't want this to be a Google page at all. Right. So that, but I think Google has this kind of very bright like you know, simple, inviting design. So if, if we could do a bit more in that direction kind of.
00:24:40
James Redenbaugh: Yeah, let's look at.
00:24:41
Jan Pfister: It's not far from it in that sense.
00:24:49
James Redenbaugh: Let's see. If I can get a better sense of what you mean by that. Because Google is huge. And their style.
00:25:16
Jan Pfister: Yeah, I have in fact, I have in fact primarily just the basic Google search engine in mind, which is kind of so simple.
00:25:23
James Redenbaugh: Right.
00:25:24
Jan Pfister: So it has just these, the name with four colors. Of course now it's, it's all different but I mean you know, you know the original. And I think, I don't want to think in a way too much about Google and kind of replicate here Google design that would be absolutely not what I mean with it. But when you just look at this here on the right where the, the logo is basically on the search engine. So it's kind of, you know, bright. The tone is quite bright in that sense. Right.
00:25:56
James Redenbaugh: Yeah.
00:25:56
Jan Pfister: And since we want to kind of have a paradigm, you know, that is bright and shiny versus there is kind of a more dark. I mean that's kind of with what we play here, right. That there is kind of an old paradigm that has some, some darkness in it and then the new paradigm is kind of brighter. Yeah, it's a play. I guess it needs to come across in that way. And I think this kind of a bit more sharper colors can maybe do this. Especially if you want to have, you know, contrasting pictures or contrasting videos that we said where we make kind of a transition from, you know, this is how you would do business with this kind of mindset and this is how you would do business with a pro social mindset.
00:26:51
James Redenbaugh: Yeah.
00:26:51
Jan Pfister: And I think at the moment it's a bit of mix.
00:26:53
James Redenbaugh: Right.
00:26:53
Jan Pfister: Because the dark colors and the, the yellow, I mean is, is. It is a tone. I mean it's, it's, it is already really super nice. I like this much better. So clearly you need to say that, but I think you see what I mean that, that we could contrast more.
00:27:14
James Redenbaugh: Yeah.
00:27:16
Jan Pfister: Well, what do you think?
00:27:19
James Redenbaugh: I think I want to better understand because you're saying brighter but also contrast more. And in my mind, and just to be clear, like the, the, the design of the homepage here, other pages can look differently, but here because we're telling the story of getting into the problem, we kind of have it in the background and we have the brightness in the foreground. So people land here and you know, depending on their browser size, they probably mainly see this here. But it's floating in the context of the problem, which might be not what we want to do and how we want to frame it, but the copy does have us kind of talking about the defining crises. And I think that that should have a darker background to, to contrast. And overall I think that cut like color wise and clarity wise, I think maybe reintroducing. A red. Something in the red spectrum or like blood orange I want to get too red can round things off kind of moving towards. Towards Google wise,.
00:29:01
Jan Pfister: I guess. Yeah, just, just the thing. So I think actually the colors are quite good. So. Right. So red to highlight something green for the sustainability part, blue for the business kind of side.
00:29:16
James Redenbaugh: So. Yeah, yeah.
00:29:20
Jan Pfister: Actually now you play, you play, you play actually with the dark and the white. Dark and bright. So that, that is maybe an option to kind of think through this where it's. That makes actually your sense.
00:29:35
James Redenbaugh: Yeah. It could also be more like this though. Let's make these darker. And I know we, we spell Pro Social with two words, right?
00:29:53
Jan Pfister: No, actually it is, we use pro social.
00:29:56
James Redenbaugh: Okay.
00:29:56
Jan Pfister: I think is it like same as Pro Social world?
00:30:00
James Redenbaugh: Yeah, well with Pro Social world we capitalize the S.
00:30:05
Jan Pfister: Okay. Yeah. So it's, it's. We just write it as one.
00:30:15
James Redenbaugh: So if we want to lead with more brightness, we could do something like this where the, the nav is much brighter and then it leads in here. Or we could just kind of imply a border leading into something else down here. Not. Yeah.
00:30:49
Jan Pfister: So I think the base idea was to make this a brighter page so it can be a bit. Because of course this is the closest linked to Pro Social world in the same. I mean it is kind of the same, but it is, it is a different thing, different identity.
00:31:11
James Redenbaugh: Yeah.
00:31:12
Jan Pfister: One is that it's that it is bright. But I think in that sense this works quite well.
00:31:34
James Redenbaugh: Great.
00:31:35
Jan Pfister: Well we'll. So just now this figure here. Looks now color wise quite plain.
00:31:46
James Redenbaugh: Yes. So we're going to update the colors.
00:31:48
Jan Pfister: Okay. Okay, good.
00:31:50
James Redenbaugh: Yeah. Yeah, I think that these more vibrant colors are much better. And now do you like the way that we're using photos here and bringing in people?
00:32:09
Jan Pfister: I think that's, that's, that works really well this way.
00:32:13
James Redenbaugh: Yes.
00:32:16
Jan Pfister: Yeah, so it is. So that is especially here, I guess that will be more the corporate side and go through that. But that it's kind of.
00:32:31
James Redenbaugh: Yeah.
00:32:31
Jan Pfister: It needs to be so on that side. I don't know now which part of the page this is, but if it's the business side, it needs to be an executive goes on this page and feels, you know, this is my page, so. Or a manager. And I think then, then it's good.
00:32:47
James Redenbaugh: Yeah. Great.
00:32:50
Jan Pfister: And then we need to make it more concrete from the contents. That looks good. So just this, this yellow brownish here. Is that something that we could make kind of brighter?
00:33:09
James Redenbaugh: Yeah, definitely. Let's see. Let's see what this looks like. How does that feel. Compared to this one over here?
00:34:02
Jan Pfister: How about. Can it still. What about more yellowish now, given the font is anyway black.
00:34:15
James Redenbaugh: Like this.
00:34:38
Jan Pfister: Yeah, I'm not sure. I guess it should be. So I guess full yellow looks too, too. Would that work if, if it's kind of just yellow?
00:34:57
James Redenbaugh: What do you mean full yellow?
00:34:58
Jan Pfister: I mean it. Like this, like sunny yellow. I think this is greenish. I guess it will need to try out a bit. But it is kind of, you know, this. That's why I think the Google example is good in the sense of it's. They just use the. Put full power colors. Right. So it's like red, red, green, green, yellow, yellow. And I'm not saying this is going to work here or that's the best design, but I guess just what, what it creates is this. Yeah. And actually their yellow is not even full yellow. So it's then in my mind only that it's full yellow.
00:35:53
James Redenbaugh: Yeah. So their yellow is actually.
00:35:57
Jan Pfister: Yeah. So actually now what I had.
00:35:59
James Redenbaugh: Or.
00:36:00
Jan Pfister: Yeah. Also this.
00:36:13
James Redenbaugh: Yeah, almost exactly.
00:36:16
Jan Pfister: Yeah.
00:36:21
James Redenbaugh: I think a little more saturation in the yellow, but maybe not as much as Google. You know, you want to, you want to be your own thing.
00:36:38
Jan Pfister: Yeah.
00:36:39
James Redenbaugh: And. We want to be bold, but.
00:36:57
Jan Pfister: I think bold and fresh would be the words. Right. So it's kind of that it's. And yeah, of course different from that. But.
00:37:15
James Redenbaugh: I wonder.
00:37:37
Jan Pfister: Yeah, I like that picture somewhere for the planetary problem.
00:37:43
James Redenbaugh: Ah.
00:38:08
Jan Pfister: It.
00:38:41
James Redenbaugh: Just real quick. If we give the image or the. The yellow a little bit of a texture with an image, it changes things a lot. Even if it's like barely noticeable. I think it can be a lot better than just a solid color. Okay. And we can also think about playing with video in key places. You know, these. Some of these images can be moving and alive. So little event system over here. I think that the colors in the rounded corners are working really well here. Nice little arrows. And images, aerial views of the earth like this I think can work really well, showing that aliveness, but also some of the natural pattern of the planet connecting it to the work.
00:40:37
Jan Pfister: Yeah. So I think that I agreed. The only thing is it shouldn't appear as a, you know, as a green page, ideology page. It should. It should appear as a business page. But yeah, to some extent, of course, because in the end it is about this. So it's kind of a combination of showing performance and performance considers the environment here. Yeah, that's good.
00:41:26
James Redenbaugh: Great.
00:41:27
Jan Pfister: Good. Yeah, it's really tough with these colors. You get the colors right. It's a really tough one, isn't it?
00:41:38
James Redenbaugh: That kind of. Yeah.
00:41:39
Jan Pfister: Is the right color. Yeah. But yeah, generally this is, this is. I think this is a good way to go and I guess so how is it now? Is there somewhere kind of an overview of what we all planned for the pages? I mean, I gave you at the beginning, I think this document with contents and then we had also discussions along the way.
00:42:08
James Redenbaugh: Yeah,.
00:42:11
Jan Pfister: Because I just think next week I could, you know, double check a bit the content so that before I leave that, that's kind of. That we have a. Kind of a good idea of what's all in there.
00:42:24
James Redenbaugh: Yeah, good question. So I can generate a. A site map based on what we have. So you can review all the content in just a wireframe basically and click through the different pages. And.
00:42:49
Jan Pfister: And then also what I need to provide you, you know, maybe some papers, resources that we use so that they can be used as well.
00:43:01
James Redenbaugh: Yeah, Anything that's missing from that site map, I'll identify with like a yellow border to show that we need event examples or research or things like that and all link to that from here. So all the different versions of things that we've made are living at this link. And I'll just, I'm sharing that with you on WhatsApp. I'll make sure everything except Figma stuff will be here. So I'll put the site map here.
00:43:50
Jan Pfister: And so Sigma is the, the program.
00:43:55
James Redenbaugh: To use the design program. Yeah, yeah. Yes.
00:44:00
Jan Pfister: Yeah. And I think one, one thing that really came up was since this is about paradigm shift and since paradigm shift is really difficult to convey to people. Right. This is kind of the biggest challenge of this page to, to get. Give people a grip of that, but also to have enough information on the page that especially AIs can read it. Right. So that was kind of key thing as well. We kind of combine good design and visibility for people. But also that on the page is information that also feeds AI. I think that was an idea. So that this becomes through that. I guess this is how the modern world works. So let's, let's use the means that are there. So is there anything that needs to be done that this is or is this just. When it's on a page, usually AI picks it up.
00:44:57
James Redenbaugh: We have to. We build it in a way that makes it readable and accessible and formatted for AI. People call it AIO instead of search engine optimization or GIO or generative optimization, geo, but it's basically just having the, the content and then also the structure behind it. The ways that we use headlines and tags and things to make it easily understood. And then we want to make sure that the research that we link to it is also readable by AI. So if something is hosted on a page that blocks bots, maybe we want to put it on your site instead. Things like that.
00:45:54
Jan Pfister: You mean if something is blocked somewhere else or. And then put it on the site or.
00:45:58
James Redenbaugh: Yeah, yeah. So if you have a paper on a university website and that website blocks bots from reading those papers, but you want bots to read your paper, then we could put it on your website. We could still link to the university website, but just to make it accessible to the bot to see that content.
00:46:24
Jan Pfister: Part of this is also this pro social market economy compared to market economy and all these others, you know that it, it's understandable what it actually means, not kind of something. Yeah, Yep. No, that's good. So, yeah. So next step then you would send me this site map and. And then I have, I have to link to what you showed me now. Right. So. And also in case something new is designed, would I. Could I access it?
00:46:55
James Redenbaugh: Yeah, you'll see it show up in figma.
00:46:59
Jan Pfister: Okay. So I just need to make that account basically and then just that I can show this to three people and get also some opinions and. Yep, cool, that feels good. I think we are getting on track.
00:47:18
James Redenbaugh: Great, that's awesome.
00:47:21
Jan Pfister: What, what would be when is good to talk again?
00:47:28
James Redenbaugh: On Monday or Tuesday I think and then, and then next Thursday. So does this time again on Thursday work for you?
00:47:44
Jan Pfister: Yes, that's a. That's a good time. And then I could do Monday or Tuesday right now at this, at this time here. So actually think about it. Maybe Tuesday.
00:48:10
James Redenbaugh: Yeah, let's do that.
00:48:12
Jan Pfister: So if you do Tuesday at here, 5 o', clock, whatever it is on your side now and then on Thursday it would be an hour earlier. So Tuesday I didn't yet. Good. Tuesday I might. Let's see, maybe I come with two collaborators, teammates and can see what they say.
00:48:56
James Redenbaugh: Okay. Yep, sounds good.
00:49:00
Jan Pfister: Yep, sounds good. Then have a good weekend.
00:49:04
James Redenbaugh: You too, Jan. I'll see you soon.
00:49:06
Jan Pfister: Yep. See you. Bye. Bye.
00:49:07
James Redenbaugh: Ciao.
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