00:00:00

Peter Wrinch: Hey, Ellen.

00:00:02

Ellen Keith Shaw: Hello.

00:00:05

James Redenbaugh: Hey Ellen, did you find a charger?

00:00:07

Ellen Keith Shaw: Oh my God. That was like. Yeah, I just thought I was plugged in this whole time and then all of a sudden it went dark. Yeah, I found something.

00:00:18

Peter Wrinch: Great.

00:00:18

James Redenbaugh: How are you today?

00:00:22

Ellen Keith Shaw: Me or Peter or either. Is that up for grabs?

00:00:28

Peter Wrinch: Grabs I was slapping because we've all been there like with the charger or like whatever like technology thing that makes everything so amazing. It's like, it's so easy to like forget one thing. And you're like.

00:00:48

Ellen Keith Shaw: Right. And you know, like 10 minutes before we're supposed to get together. Right. It's like it's not an hour before. It's like, no, it's right when you gotta do the thing.

00:00:58

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:01:00

Ellen Keith Shaw: But hey, you know what? It all worked out. So I'm just right now to be here.

00:01:09

James Redenbaugh: Here we are.

00:01:10

Ellen Keith Shaw: Here we are.

00:01:13

James Redenbaugh: How are you doing, Peter?

00:01:16

Peter Wrinch: I'm pretty good. Lots going on. Like, just lots going on. As always, I'm sure for everyone. Yeah. And like I, I, I will say that like, and I think I've said this before. It's like on this journey I'm on, I like I'm always. Anyways, it's just like, you know, I have to self regulate a lot. Like I'm like, no more watching YouTube. Do something instead of watch YouTube for 10 minutes. No. Great.

00:01:49

James Redenbaugh: I'm curious what's been alive for you since our last call? And before we jump into that, do you want to start with some silence here?

00:02:34

Peter Wrinch: It.

00:03:17

Ellen Keith Shaw: Can I share a funny reflection on silence? You know, I was just like, oh, this feels so good. It's like so good to be so silent because we're so busy. And I just had this experience with my kids this weekend where like I couldn't find this like damn apple remote. And I, my kid wanted to watch something on tv and I'm looking everywhere and I was just telling him, I was like, I just need to lay down on the ground for like 15 minutes. Like, I'm so tired. I can't keep looking for this damn remote. And I, but I was trying to find it so that I could then lie down. I couldn't find it anywhere. I looked for like 45 minutes for this thing. Finally I was like, I give up. I'm going to lay down. I'll be back in like 20 minutes. Because that's what I like to do. I like to lay on the earth to like, you know, reset. Sorry to God. The minute I laid down on the ground, I was like, the remote is in my daughter's room. Like, it just came to me, like, instantaneously. Like, as soon as I stopped, I'm like, okay.

00:04:21

James Redenbaugh: Like.

00:04:24

Ellen Keith Shaw: Silence answers in it. Such a amazing thing.

00:04:32

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:04:37

James Redenbaugh: I'm trying to find that every day. What? We're so busy preparing for the wedding, doing a million different things. And it was my birthday yesterday, and there's just so much going on. So important to remember to let go of all of it and be empty as much as I can.

00:05:05

Ellen Keith Shaw: Happy birthday.

00:05:07

James Redenbaugh: Thank you.

00:05:09

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, I was kind of having a similar experience in our silence there. I was like, I. Last year, when I started this journey, I was like. I was really committed to my meditation practice, and I've sort of, like, let it slip away or been, like, less committed. And this, like, mentor I have, he always asks me, like, if I'm like, oh, I'm this or that. He's like, how are your practices? I'm like, right. Like, I'll, like, make all this drama about it. And his, like, question is always, how are your practices? Like, right. They're not great. I actually prepared this for another meeting, but it never came to pass. So I just. I. I can do a little reading. And it's from this book that I've had for a while. I think it was. I think it was a New York Times bestseller. But it's On Tyranny by Thomas Snyder, who I guess is like, a American professor. And so it's like. I think it came out in the first Trump term, But it's like, 20 lessons from the 20th century, and it's very small, and it's kind of like this. And at the beginning of every chapter, he's got, like, a little summary. And so there's one that is so interesting for me in a book of tyranny plots that you would like, you know, expect, like, be aware, be wary of paramilitary. But. But here's one that I find. Just think it's just kind of. It's. So what's this one? Number 12? Make eye contact and small talk. And this is what he says. This is not just polite. It's part of being a citizen and a responsible member of society. It is also a way to stay in touch with your surroundings, break down social barriers, and understand who you should and should not trust. If we enter a culture of denunciation, you will want to know the psychological landscape of your daily life. I mean, none of that is particularly funny, but I just think, like, make eye contact and small talk. Like, I think a lot of circles, I roll in like, small talk is kind of like, look down on. But it is like, so interesting when you, when we live like this, it's like, you know, I live on this small island and everyone says hi to everyone. Then you go to the city and it's like, says hi to anyone. It's like they're all on guard and like. So I, I, this was a hard one for me, but I kind of hold it. It's like, just make eye contact and small talk, like, how's it going?

00:08:16

James Redenbaugh: Beautiful.

00:08:16

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah, it's interesting. Thanks for that share. Because, you know, the capitalistic, like, take on it is like everybody's time, so valuable, you know, and in it. And it is. Right. But it's also like, you can't monetize a relationship.

00:08:31

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:08:37

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. I have a sometimes radical belief that relationships are the only things that exist. And everything else is basically in service to that. Even the subjective I experience is an illusion. It's a manifestation of the collective. And even matter itself only exists in relationship and in service of our experience here together. Which wouldn't be if it wasn't for the more than 1.

00:09:21

Peter Wrinch: I think physics agrees with you.

00:09:25

James Redenbaugh: I think so, yeah. More and more.

00:09:27

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, James, you asked me the question, like, what was kind of like coming up for me or what was popping for me since our last call. Yeah, lots of different things, I think. I think at a very high level what's been coming up for me is, like, the real importance of this project. And because I think my business is. I don't want to say it's in, like, a different phase because that would, like, kind of fit in that, like, thing I said where I think I've got a new take on it every month. But it's like, it definitely feels like there are more people kind of knocking on my door and I don't. And I don't have that home, you know, that I talked about, like, I don't have that home. And so what that requires is me just always being in conversation about it, which isn't a bad thing. It's just like, it's like I don't have anywhere to direct people. And then I think the other piece of it is in this way, I mean, like, there's lots going on. It's sort of hard to know, like, what's real, what's not. But I think that there are a few things sort of emerging around me that I'm feeling like a clarification or like a distillation. I think of the offering is like, yeah, I'll just share, like. So I have a friend who's, like, I'd say about a year behind me in this kind of concept. And she's like, I was about a year ago. She's very obsessed of, like, what is the offering? What's the offering that she's putting into the world? So it's actually giving me a space to reflect. Oh, I can remember when I was really focused on that, and now I'm just, like, kind of letting it emerge. But also, it would be really. It is really important to have some parameters around the offering, at least on the surface, so that it. It, like, directs some people towards me and other people away. That's kind of what I was. What I've been thinking. And then the other thing I've been thinking is about, like, some of those photos I sent, like, of the colors, like, and just so much about, like, where I am, like, physically situated is quite important to me. I sort of came to. It's like, not even important. It's not the word. It is, like, of me. I am of it. Even though I have a weird relationship with. That I might have shared before. So those are the kind of things I've been thinking about.

00:13:12

James Redenbaugh: Wonderful. I want to let Ellen take more of the lead here today and guide us through some processes, and we'll see where this conversation takes us. So why don't I hand it over to you?

00:13:31

Ellen Keith Shaw: Sounds good. Yeah. And, yeah, just to respond to what you were saying, Peter, I really feel like, you know, what you and I think will work quite closely on is developing the content for your site and me helping give you kind of that container and framework. And maybe you already have a framework. Do you already have kind of like a structure you're feeling good about working with or how.

00:14:07

Peter Wrinch: Tell me exactly what you mean by that, Ellen.

00:14:10

Ellen Keith Shaw: So there. There are actually, like, prompts that I could give, much like the questionnaire that James shared, where it's kind of like, some things resonate, some things don't. And there are frameworks for offer pages which can kind of start to give you buckets, not necessarily about what you would say, but kind of the points you want touch on something like an offering page to start to give it kind of bones.

00:14:36

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, I think you can, like, assume that I don't have any of that. I think that what I have is a year of conversation. Well, much longer than that, but let's say a year of conversations under this brand and a whole bunch of proposals that I've Put out in the world. I have a whole bunch of like, templates. so when I talk about offering, it's like I kind of like my mind actually goes to. That is I'm like, oh, right. Like my offering is actually quite straightforward at its core, but it's more the periphery, the peripheral edges of it that I'm not as sure about.

00:15:24

Ellen Keith Shaw: Okay.

00:15:26

Peter Wrinch: So my answer is I don't really have a framework.

00:15:29

Ellen Keith Shaw: Great. Okay. And then the other thing. So we'll work with that. No problem. And I just think it's like an interesting way to think about as you start to develop content. This, it's like it can be a natural filter and it sounds like you could really use that, especially as your traction starts to grow and more people are reaching out. Like you don't want to just talk to anybody. So. And that will start getting into kind of audience today and be looking at that. That idea of, you know, when I think about content on a website, it's like the part we are short attention spans. Right. Someone needs to land there. It sounds like a lot of them will come via word of mouth, especially at the beginning, but not necessarily people who have a relationship with you. And so they need to very quickly like, see, oh, this is for me. And ideally they will see, oh, this is not for me. Right. Like we want to attract people and repel people so that you're not speaking to everyone.

00:16:32

Peter Wrinch: Yes.

00:16:33

Ellen Keith Shaw: So, yeah, I like that's already kind of the way you're thinking about it. Because a lot of times people want to talk to everyone and it's something I really have to be like, that's not what you want to do because then you, yeah. You don't stand out much. Like the advisors, the financial advisors you showed. Right. That's not going to appeal to everybody. That's going to be like a quick turn off for others.

00:16:56

Peter Wrinch: Totally.

00:17:00

Ellen Keith Shaw: Okay, so what I'm going to do is share my screen. See here. Just want to share the whole thing. Oh, and I'll give you two kind of land us in the process and where we're at so that we're kind of tracking this beautiful framework that James has created. And in my mind, in the last workshop, we did a like, really good job of this discovery envisioning. Like I very un. Much understand, like who you are and what you're doing. I'm pretty clear on your why. I have an exercise that we might dive a little bit deeper into that. You know, I know that you're getting some testimonials of clients, which I do think will help inform also how we're talking about what you do and understand what you do kind of to a level that, as yourself, you can't quite get to. Right. We talked about that last time.

00:18:08

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:18:10

Ellen Keith Shaw: That's been very helpful for me as I kind of work to define what it is that I do. Yeah. And from your questionnaire, we're starting to get how people should feel, for sure. And. And I think for sure we've honed in on your unique frequency and resonance. I'm really feeling that. And seeing that. I think we need to start working on the content, like, and what content exists and what we need to create, I think is perhaps like the last part on. On this phase that we're still kind of working towards. So for me, in this call, we're going to be start moving into this kind of brand development and content strategy. And what I would like to get to in this call is a lot of, like, brand voice guidelines. Like, we've definitely started looking at visual stuff. I know Jan, James dove a bit deeper in that. So at some point in the call, I definitely want to look at what you shared and discuss that and see kind of what James has dug up. I'm thinking very much for my part of this call about this. Yeah. Content and how. How we're orienting uncommon partners.

00:19:25

Peter Wrinch: Okay.

00:19:28

Ellen Keith Shaw: Does that feel like. And so just kind of finish that thought is, you know, this is. I think we said two to three meetings. Is that right, James? Yeah, two to three content and structure sessions. So if we can kind of get through this, like, top level and keep, like, refining. I mean, it sounds like we're getting pretty clear on palette. Should be like a naturally inspired palette. Less so than the blacks and reds is what I'm hearing. I think that makes sense for your audience. Like, even though we're going to be presenting a very different visual language than the predictable one, that they can still land something that feels like home or like them or welcoming, I think will be nice.

00:20:10

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:20:15

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah. And so my hope is that perhaps, you know, depending on it sounds like there's not, like a crazy urgency here, but you're like, I kind of. We want to, like, keep the project moving. So is it next week that you're out, James?

00:20:30

Peter Wrinch: Yes.

00:20:30

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah. And so, Peter, after this call, just kind of put it out there. I'm very willing to have another call next week where we keep working on messaging and massaging that while James is out, if that feels like that would be supportive and Good.

00:20:45

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:20:45

Ellen Keith Shaw: To keep that moving. Okay. And so I'm gonna go here and give you link to this, so you got to follow along. All right. So this Figma board kind of is where I'm going to be working from. From for the session.

00:21:19

Peter Wrinch: Okay.

00:21:20

Ellen Keith Shaw: Let me know if that lets you in. Okay. Maybe I'll. I'll stop the share and just have y' all follow, you know, my cursor. Okay. Where I'm at here. So just because I'm. I'm a bit newish to the team and working with you, Peter, I wanted to back up a few steps and just explain a little bit. Brand strategy is really kind of my. My passion. Much like James is talking about, like the relationship and understanding what someone's trying to do really does bring me a lot of joy in this process, and that's how I've come to feel so strongly about brand strategy. I think when you have a good strategy, and this is what we've been doing the whole time, right. Like your questionnaire, our conversations, this is all brand strategy. But in general, I think of brand development and building, like this roadmap, you know, where everything builds on the previous step. And so, you know, the purpose of a brand, then you know, this is that congruence you're talking about. Right. The. Through the purpose, we should then have that inform the personality. The personality impacts, like the who the people are who you're speaking to. Yeah, I've seen it done other ways. Or there's such a focus on people that lose the heart or, like, soul of, like, what it is they're doing, and we're not doing that here. And I think that's really important because we want it to have that, like, deep resonance that will then make the people, which they already are doing, but they'll continue to come to you naturally. Some of the companies I work with are working on, like, climate solutions, so that's why there's this or. Or wanting to move towards that direction. So that's why planet is here. But it's not really. I mean, it's definitely part of what you're doing. I get it's like a core value, but we don't need to get into that here, really. You don't have like a, you know, product chain we need to look at, for example, and then we have positioning and then planning. So, you know, when we think about this brand pyramid, a lot of times, you know, all people see is this in particular, like, look and feel. Right. That's the focus. But what I love about Strategy is by building up all these other things and getting like a strong understanding, then these things become quite easy. This one is quite a bit like the other one. Just another way of looking at it. But you know, we're here.

00:24:05

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:24:06

Ellen Keith Shaw: And we're moving into here. And then that will then inform all this. So these are just like a couple different examples of ways to think about brand personality. You know, we can create a brand avatar. We can figure out like how to talk about it. It's nice. Much like how James did the exercise with what kind of a building would uncommon partners be or architecture. They're all just different ways that kind of trying to get at what people are doing. So we're not talking about things like so directly because then we miss opportunities. Right. For insights. So, yeah, I just wanted to kind of share how I think about brand personality. We're going to start getting into some of this, but this is how it can kind of manifest in something like a brand guideline. This one, I think is. This is an example where I was looking at three different brands. And I think that this is like an interesting one just to look at as you're building a brand because. Because all of this will play into it. But this is more relevant. This is almost like a marketing slide, right? It's like more relevant when you're in the middle and growing. But I still think it's interesting to think about. You know, this is like an inverted triangle compared to this one. We're really working from here. I mean, you don't have a brand and I don't even like the word problem. I feel like I need to like phrase these as opportunities. But you know, we are building like the brand and how we help the people. This is testimonials, how we help them become advocates. They're already like loyal. They're already talking about you and referring people. But this is just. We want to strengthen this and eventually, you know, you might get up here. But even this like sales problem could be like, you're talking to more people than you want to talk to right now.

00:26:09

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, definitely. I can think a bunch. I can actually think of a number of sales problems.

00:26:15

Ellen Keith Shaw: Okay, what else is coming up for you? Just because we could potentially address some of those on the site.

00:26:22

Peter Wrinch: I think it will definitely play in. But like to give you. So some of the examples sales problems I have is like, so okay, I'm going to start with one. So one is like, who are my customers? Right. And I think in one call. Sorry, I have so many conversations about this. I forget where I had them, but I think in one call we talked like, I think when I first a year ago, I was like, oh, like, I'll work with retreat centers and advocacy orgs and like, things I really believe in. And now I'm like, actually no, I'll just work with retreat centers. So that becomes like a. Like, that's not a problem for me. That. That is clear. But inside retreat centers, like inside whatever you want to call it, the movement or sector, whatever, there is such a vast diversity of retreat centers, everything from like, you know, $10,000 a night wellness retreats to literally, like, we have a 0.3 staff person and we barely have an organization. And so I think like a. A sales problem that I have or an articulation of customer problem I have is like, how do I find that, like, sweet spot of people who can pay for what I'm offering? And I tend to think that's in the like, 5 million operate annual operating. 5 million annual operating. They can definitely pay. I have one customer now. That's 1 million annual operating. But what. And so here's my sales problem is my pricing. So, like, I took that customer because I really like them. But my coach said to me, he's like, oh, wow, you gave them the $75,000 offering for 30K? And I did. And so it's like, that's kind of the one of the sales problems I have is like, pricing and how to like. Like, I would rather drive my pricing up and work less.

00:28:32

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah.

00:28:33

Peter Wrinch: With fewer people.

00:28:35

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yep.

00:28:36

Peter Wrinch: So that's like that when I saw this word sales problem, that's kind of. And it's. It's like, again, like we're talking about five to seven clients. So it's not like this massive problem. But what I'm noticing is like, I. I can feel my interest wane a little bit with clients who are like, less interesting or paying less.

00:29:02

Ellen Keith Shaw: So super interesting. Paying less. How is that client for you?

00:29:07

Peter Wrinch: Oh, super interesting and paying less.

00:29:09

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah.

00:29:10

Peter Wrinch: Well.

00:29:14

Ellen Keith Shaw: Coach is saying maybe not, but I'm. But it's interesting.

00:29:17

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, no, totally like this.

00:29:19

Ellen Keith Shaw: Waynes. As budgets get, it's weird.

00:29:22

Peter Wrinch: It's like, it's not. So. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I. I will tell you in a. In two weeks because I just have started this one, but like, I've had a few others. I think super interesting is my number one thing. I actually don't care that much if it's less money, but if it's both, I feel myself I wouldn't Quite say like resentful, because I'd only be resentful to myself, but it's like I'm just less interested.

00:29:59

Ellen Keith Shaw: Fair. Yeah. I worked for a while. I mean this is very much in the design world, but I worked with this coach, Chris Doe, who, I mean he's like Matt, like all over YouTube. He's, he's hugely successful. So it's not like I'm working one to one with him, but I was in this boot camp with him where we worked quite closely and he does this. This was a few years ago. He's really into this value based pricing model, which I think is interesting. Yeah. So the. So you're already doing that. So it's like not a fixed rate. Right. Like you could charge someone way more so that you can do more of those projects and still come out on top. I don't know.

00:30:44

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, yeah, that's. My coach is also. So he built like a wellness empire and then he retired and he's very much like value based pricing. And so when I'm pricing something for someone, he's like, well, what do you think the value they're going to receive from this is? And I'm like, well, you know, whatever, a million bucks. And he's like, so price it appropriately.

00:31:10

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah. And. And I think the question I like to ask myself too is I'm. I mean, sales is. It's just not my favorite, but it is like, can they get there without you? You know, what is the value of having you part of that team to get them where they want to go? And that's probably passive.

00:31:27

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. And this is like, it's funny, I, I think I said this on another call, but like one of the things I've really started to see my core offering is accompaniment.

00:31:38

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah.

00:31:40

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. It's not really like. And, and an accompaniment is like 30 years of social change work and all of that. Like, that's actually the product, you know, when I. But like, that's not what I necessarily say to the people.

00:32:02

Ellen Keith Shaw: What part of that do you not say to the people and why?

00:32:04

Peter Wrinch: I think like, mostly what I mean by that is like, you know, someone like, I'll use. I use Mount Madonna center as like my really good example because like ended up in a contract with them that I really like and it's priced right. And you know, they came to me and said, oh, we need a philanthropic strategy. And I was like, okay. But what I. So like, you know, if, like I'll, you know, if we looked at My proposals. You'll see. Like, it's that language. Right? It's philanthropic strategy. It's not accompaniment. But what I know from just being in it for the last year is that often it is accompaniment. Like it's, there's like cheerleading. So I don't that. I guess what I'm saying is I don't write that in my proposals, but that is how I see it now.

00:33:05

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah. It's interesting how you can have. Phil, was it philanthropic? What?

00:33:12

Peter Wrinch: So philanthropic strategy.

00:33:13

Ellen Keith Shaw: Right. So that's like the language your ideal. Just make sure that's the language they would speak your ideal client, and they would see that and understand that.

00:33:25

Peter Wrinch: Yes. Generally speaking, it sometimes is like a little bit dumbed down to we need money.

00:33:32

Ellen Keith Shaw: Right.

00:33:33

Peter Wrinch: You know, so then like, often that's kind of. I would say that's a good question, Alan. I would say that. I probably say philanthropic strategy. They say we need money.

00:33:46

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah.

00:33:46

Peter Wrinch: Or we need help raising money is sometimes what I hear.

00:33:49

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah. Okay. So, yeah. Although that's helpful to hear. And those are all things we'll be thinking about as you write. And, and also, I mean, I'm curious where this story of accompaniment could find space. Maybe not like leading with it, but showing that's something, you know, I mean, that's huge.

00:34:08

Peter Wrinch: Well, yes. And the reason why. And I'll say this clearly, and it, this is very, it's actually become very clear to me in the last year. So if you were like running a non profit and you were like, hey, Peter, we heard you're really good at raising money. Can you come help us? Often there sort of two needs that they have. One is strategic and then one is doing it and I don't want to do it. I'm very clear about that. Like, I, I've done that for 20 years. Like, and here's the weird thing is like, I will sometimes do it for the person. Like, I, I will certainly go to meetings with them, I will introduce them to funders, and even occasionally I will do an ask for them. But I am really clear I do not want that expectation. Because it's sort of like, there's lots of reasons. One is I just don't want to do it. But another is it's sort of like the teach a person to fish. Right? Like, it's like if I just do their fundraising for them, then I'm gone and they have no capacity. So again, I would go back to Mount Madonna. is like kind of my best client is like, it was philanthropic strategy. Hire their team, coach for success. That's like the three parts of the. Of my contract with them.

00:35:48

Ellen Keith Shaw: Wow. I mean, that's some. That's some very helpful doing for them. You hired their team?

00:35:54

Peter Wrinch: The. The. Yeah, I have not done it yet. But. But the. Like, that. That part of the doing is very. I agree. It's very helpful for them because.

00:36:07

Ellen Keith Shaw: Go ahead. Sorry.

00:36:08

Peter Wrinch: No, I was just gonna say, like, in. In the case of them, they just actually had no idea how to start, and there was a lot of internal conflict. And so they needed an external to come in and say, I've got all this experience. This is how you do it. I'll do it. I'm going to hire your team, and I'm going to coach that team to success. But I'm not asking people to give you money unless I see, like, a golden opportunity.

00:36:45

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah, well, not. I mean, I worked with the preschool that was fundraising, where a woman, like, coached them through it. And it was similarly. She was like, you have the relationships. It doesn't make sense for me to approach this billionaire and ask them for money. I can. I'll coach you how. But.

00:36:59

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, and I might even connect you, but I'm not. Yeah, exactly. For those reasons, like, I'm not the person. Like, I don't live this.

00:37:10

Ellen Keith Shaw: As. As a brand strategist. This was actually someone who is in the Climate Wisdom Fellowship that Spencer runs. But I've. I've used it a lot in strategy, and I think it applies for. For you, too. So I'm going to share it. He's. He, like, I will give someone a strategy strategic document. And in particular, one client. It was, like, very robust. We did a lot of work to create this thing together. But then it was kind of. And I said this from the beginning, but. And I'm. And I'm not sure because in some ways I feel like I fail when something isn't implemented. Right. When all you do is have a strategic document.

00:37:50

Peter Wrinch: Yep.

00:37:52

Ellen Keith Shaw: But the quote I put at the end that I got from this guy in my retreat was, the map is not the territory. Right. You get the map, and then, like, you have to go navigate the territory. He's Canadian, you know, like, go find. Use it, you know?

00:38:10

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. Yeah. I'll say one thing that. That just sparked for me, Alan, with Mount Madonna. So I don't know if I told this story last time, but. So I had known the principal of Mount Madonna for a long time, just, like, through. I was an Ed. She's an ed. And so how they came to me was another Ed, who I'm close to, was visiting them, and they were saying, oh, my God, we. We have an operating deficit, and we're not sure that our earned revenue will. Will bridge the gap. And this other Ed said, oh, my God, well, you need to talk to Peter. Like. Like, he. He can help you. And I think they probably said, we need to raise money or we need to fundraise. And he's like, well, you should talk to Peter. He can help you. And so she reached out to me. We had a call. She was very sheepish. This is what I mean. Like, if I had a home, right, where they could go and see, oh, what's he offering? But she was very sheepish because were kind of friends and she didn't know quite what I was up to. And so then she said, oh, my God, we need a philanthropic. Like, we need to raise money. And I said, oh, I can do philanthropic strategy. So I threw them a proposal for 25k to do a philanthropic strategy. And they. It's a really powerful senior leadership team of all these, like, really enlightened women. And they get on a call with me and they're like, yeah, this is great, but we need more. And I was like, what? And they were like exactly what you said. Like, the plan is not the territory. Like, it's not the terrain. Like, we've had so many consultants give us plans. We need more of your time. We need more of you. And I said, well, I'm not going to be your development director. And she said, no, that's not what we're asking. And so then I put together the strategic plan or the strategy, the hiring, the coaching, and I put a price tag on it that I thought was insane. And they were like, yeah, perfect sign.

00:40:18

Ellen Keith Shaw: So good.

00:40:19

Peter Wrinch: And. And. And that's where. That's when I think accompaniment really came into my head, is like, they don't want. And I can remember this too, being an Ed, right? Like, I don't want a plan that I can't execute on, because I also feel this. And. And from my perspective, Ellen, I feel the same way. Like, you know, this thing I was working on that James designed in Alabama for these indigenous folks, if that just sits on a shelf, I have failed. I have failed. I've wasted their money. I've wasted James's time. I've wasted my time. And. And so with that client, I don't have an accompaniment contract. I had, like. And so now I'm just kind of volunteering. I'm just doing it but for Mount Madonna, they're sort of the. I think the best. It's exactly how I want to be.

00:41:19

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah, we should definitely. I'm. I think that's wonderful that you have this client that's like your sweet spot. Because I think that we can. That you're having that experience already as we can really try to work to basically like create that again or how do we kind of riff off of creating something out of that? Yeah, yeah. And. And I think you can do that accompaniment without being the doer. It's like, it's very top level support. You know, that's.

00:41:51

Peter Wrinch: I, I think like at first I started using the word strategic advisor, but then it just felt so clinical. It felt so like. And it, there's something about it that doesn't land for me. It's like, it's too like button up. It's too like white man, like McKinsey. Like, it's just kind of gnarly to me. There's something about it. Although I will say that there's parts of it that do suit. Satisfy my ego for sure. Like I like sometimes saying, oh, I'm a strategic advisor. Yeah.

00:42:26

Ellen Keith Shaw: Well, I mean, much like were talking about the last time, like, we can probably find lots of strategic advisors, but how do you find someone that accompanies or is on that edge that you're on, which even your ideal audience. I know you're saying like sometimes like board members or they might not totally be tracking like all the things you're trying, all the dimensions you're trying to bring into this experience. But yeah, how do we kind of ride that edge where that comes to your brand to differentiate you?

00:42:57

James Redenbaugh: Right?

00:42:58

Peter Wrinch: Because I think like, yeah, this actually, this is a good edge because like. Okay, so if I think about strategic advisement, right. Like, I find that like very, you know, expert oriented. Like I'm going to tell you. And what I think, like why accompaniment is feeling more real to me is it's like I'm actually just with you. But yes, I do bring all of this experience and education and whatever, but actually you have it all. Like there's nothing I'm going to deliver to you that you don't already have. And this is where that empowerment, like sort of comes in. And I think that's been my discomfort with strategic advisement is like, I actually find strategic advisement anytime that I've received it. I found it disempowering mostly if the person is not like strongly attuned or a good listener or. Yeah. Does her Follow.

00:44:08

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah, totally. There's. There's places where you might want, like, strategic advisor to me is like, this is what you do to me. Like, what I heard from your financial. You know, go back into that example. You're like, tell me what to do. But, like, in this. In this realm of creating a retreat center and creating a culture and creating, like, a whole world. Yeah, in that sense, yeah. Advisement would become a crutch or would become something that is not quite.

00:44:37

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, totally. And that's. That's a good thing with Pacific Advisors. Right? Like, when I went to that website, I was like, look at this tough dude. Like, he's. He's fucking got it. He knows what's going on. And that's actually what I need for my accountant. Like, I actually don't need you to listen to me too much. Like, I need to listen to you. you know, all things can. Like, if he was an asshole, I wouldn't be appreciative. But. But I think that in my work, like, even so, this new client that I have that I'm starting next week in New York is Watershed. It's called Watershed. And it's this married couple. They're the ones who got the, like, $75,000 deal for 30 grand. and I tried to, like, pull to bring it down, but we'll see. Very interesting. Fascinating folks. Incredibly powerful people. Like, just like. But something's there where they don't see their own power, you know, Like. Like, these are, like, seriously powerful people. Like, New York social. Like. Like, their connections in New York go for miles, you know? But there's something. It's like, I need to accompany them and empower and help them feel confident about the decisions they need to make.

00:46:04

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah, you wrote about that a bit on the questionnaire. I felt like, about kind of helping people understand that. And so that's what's. Like, the word accompaniment is such an interest. And I'm not. I don't want to, like, marry to that. Or we're just trying to, like, it's a beautiful metaphor. But I'm also thinking, just as we're talking about what you do, they couldn't, like, get to those places without the conversations you're going to be having. And so it's like, I mean, kind of not all that different than what James and I are doing here with you. It's just like, with a different realm. Right? Like, we're helping you build a brand, and you're helping build these retreat centers, but it's like extracting the knowledge that's within. And then, like, helping them, like, frame it.

00:46:46

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:46:47

Ellen Keith Shaw: To become, like, the thing that's, like, why I'm.

00:46:51

Peter Wrinch: I'm pretty, like, big on that word coherence. Right. Because they're. They're cohering things. And I think, like, this is this edge of the expert strategic advisor and the, like, active listener, if you will. It's like. It kind of comes back to what I was saying about the billionaires last time is it's like, I'm not. Like, I've been working on this agenda for next week in New York, and I'm like, I'm gonna push them. Like, we're gonna do some weird. You know, like. And I'm not. Like, it's not like this is that bold. Like, the bold piece. It's like, I'm not just there to, like, cuddle or, like, make you feel good in the moment. Like, and it's not like, I'm also not like, there to hurt you in any way. But it's like. It's like one of the questions I was like, I'm toying with in the agenda is like, what's the conversation we're not having? What's the conversation nobody's having? What's the conversation that wants to be had? You know what? Yeah. And I think that's part of the brand to me. Is it. Because I think, like, one thing about the retreats in our world is it's. It's like, incredibly like. Oh, like, Madden, like, mind numbingly relational. And so, like, everyone, like, wants to make sure everyone else feels good. And I'm. I'm not as, like, down with that as everyone else.

00:48:39

Ellen Keith Shaw: Well, you talked last time about that sometimes making inaction or like, that there's so much of that you can't make the kind of progress that actually needs to be made to make change. Yeah, Totally concedes. So do you come. How do you combat that with honesty or how. Yeah. How do you face.

00:48:57

Peter Wrinch: Mostly, I think the point I want to make is there's, like a deep. Like. It's like. There's like a whatever the as at the forefront. The bottom layer is a deep compassion and listening. Like, I'm not. I'm not like that guy who walks in and be like, you know, guns, like. But I'm. I'm definitely, like. I was on a call yesterday, just to give an example, and it. It was a call that I organized, and it was about, like, operating retreat centers. And in one of the breakouts, it was with six people and it was like, such a shared experience in the call as they were talking about, like, we have no idea what our margins are. We have no idea. Like, we have no idea. And so what ends up happening is we like something. We do it because we like it, and we're losing money. And my response is just like, no, stop now. Like, and. And they're just like. I'm like, look, like, someone said this in the call. They said, I charge what I charge so I can be here next year when you want to come back. And I think, like, what I'm trying to bring is more that wisdom than, like, you know, like, there's people in the retreat center, folks who are like. And sometimes me, too, that are like, the universe will provide until everyone's gone, you know?

00:50:25

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah, the universe needs a little help sometimes.

00:50:28

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, totally. Or, like, just like, you know. So I think one of the things I've been thinking a lot about is, like, I'm a bit of a counter these days to, like, magical thinking. Like, and I'm also, like, a deep magical thinker, like, endlessly. But I'm. I'm sort of recovering from that.

00:50:48

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah.

00:50:49

James Redenbaugh: Send and include.

00:50:51

Peter Wrinch: What's that?

00:50:53

James Redenbaugh: Transcend and include magical thinking.

00:50:55

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:51:02

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah. You got to keep space for magic. For sure. Always.

00:51:06

Peter Wrinch: Sure. For sure. For sure.

00:51:11

Ellen Keith Shaw: James, do you. How. How is this feeling to you? Are you good? If I just kind of.

00:51:17

Peter Wrinch: Please.

00:51:17

James Redenbaugh: Yeah.

00:51:18

Ellen Keith Shaw: The next thing I have or do you have anything to add to this discussion before I move on?

00:51:23

James Redenbaugh: Go for it.

00:51:24

Ellen Keith Shaw: Okay, cool. All right, so this is, you know, what we've already done. I just kind of want to review where we've been at. We're going to look at brand, personality. Then we're going to kind of do a little discussion about purpose, vision, mission. And from there, my last goal today, I think, is to do the stakeholder mapping exercise where I've taken kind of some of what you put in the questionnaire and carried it over here for a discussion about who your stakeholders are. But, yeah, just to kind of recap. And I. And I pulled this, too, from the questionnaire. This what gifts come online when you're offering yourself fully and joyfully to uncommon partners with compassion, connection, boldness, action. Like, all of those feel like they're kind of at the soul of what you're doing, and that also, like, a word like boldness. Yeah, both. All these words can inform visual choices and very much like the words. I want us to keep these in mind, you know, as we're developing a visual language, but also to have the work you've done and generating this from our discussions kind of be put into. Into action. So, yeah, I just want to kind of hold that and make sure that we're, you know, not forgetting where we've been as we move forward in this process. Does that, like, kind of make sense how the brand personality would impact how you're talking?

00:53:02

Peter Wrinch: Absolutely.

00:53:03

Ellen Keith Shaw: I mean, it sounds to. To me, it's. I would actually. I got on LinkedIn today to kind of check out some of your writing, and I didn't get a chance to. To do the. I found you and found a piece of writing and didn't get a chance to read it. But I'm curious when you think about how you write or if there's a piece of writing you think would beneficial for me to read, to have any more insight into this process.

00:53:28

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:53:28

Ellen Keith Shaw: Than that. But how does the voice differ or is it the same?

00:53:37

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, that is a super good question. I'm just going to drop something in the chat. So this piece of writing is probably my most provocative. That one I just dropped in. And then I would say this is probably my most. Probably my most thoughtful. I would say that the second one represents the voice that I. That feels more like actually like me. But also both of these, I think, are the uncommon brand needs to, like, be able to hold both of those. Although I will say that both of these articles now, I realized I was like, settling some scores with folks when I wrote them. So, like, some of it was like my own healing and trauma. Probably the first one more so than the second. Although the second one was the first one. But the sort of I'm left wondering post that has driven my biz Dev. Like, I still meet people today, year later, who are like, I just read this. Can we talk? And I think why it drove Biz Dev was because it was honest and it was like, it was not with answers. It was more with questions. Whereas they think the love letter to a new board chair is a lot more like. What's the word? Pedantic. It's a lot more like, I have some answers here and sorry, dear reader, but you're gonna have to listen to them. Yeah.

00:55:21

Ellen Keith Shaw: Okay, great. Thank you for sharing those. I think that will be insightful for me.

00:55:27

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:55:30

Ellen Keith Shaw: Okay. I was curious. I mean, this. This Purpose Vision mission exercise. I'll zoom way in on here a second. Have. This is an interesting, like, strategic exercise. Right. That we could take a number of hours with, or we can try to do like a speedy one. I'm wor I'm not worried at all. I'm curious if you've done some kind of exercise like this. If this feels like it would be useful to kind of run through. I'll just kind of, I'll zoom in on this. This was like kind of an example from a client that I ran this with. And basically it's just a brainstorm on, you know, how you're thinking about what it is you're doing because this too can definitely show up in the copy and how you're thinking about what it is you're doing. So I wanted to kind of propose this. If this isn't a clear articulation you've done yet. Yeah, where. Where are you at with this kind of exercise and the who?

00:56:44

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, so. So I've definitely done like, I just did an exercise like this for the retreat center collaboration. I've definitely done exercises like this, but I don't think that I've done it exactly for uncommon partners. So I think it would be interesting to me to do.

00:56:59

Ellen Keith Shaw: Great, let's do it then. And you know, I actually, for some reason, I don't know if it's my dyslexic brain or what, but have struggled with like very clearly articulating, you know, what it is we're trying to get at. And this is the very closest I've gotten. As you're kind of thinking about this and maybe you already have a clear picture, but for me it's like the vision is what inspires the brand mission is what drives it. And then the purpose is that like very like the core of, of what you do, you might not even like articulate it. It might not kind of like the question what's being unspoken? You know, like the purpose is kind of like that soul.

00:57:43

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:57:44

Ellen Keith Shaw: And so pardon. This like God awful color palette figment doesn't let you create your own colors. But basically what I want to do is, you know, we'll create these and I think actually rather than mapping them on this because it just gets messy really quickly, I'm gonna create kind of, just give me a second here. I'm gonna create the columns and I'll name each of these and then you can just kind of start brainstorming. Each of these, you know, will be a different color so that we're containing, you know, within the different categories what it is we're working on. So you know, this will be the why and what are my categories. What, how, why, who. And then we can just, you know, that no answer is wrong answer. The who will carry over to the next exercise? But yeah. And then what feels like the way you'd like to work through this? Does it feel discuss or do you want just some time to brainstorm and then have discussion? We could run it either way.

00:59:15

Peter Wrinch: I think, like, let me just think about that. I think maybe just articulate out loud. I think I can think out loud on this.

00:59:32

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah, sounds good. Bring these over here. So sometimes I think it's. For me, sometimes working outside in is the easiest because this why is kind of like the most personal and can be a little bit hard for people to articulate. And so in my mind, I think it might make sense to start, you know, out here with the who cares about what it is that you're doing.

01:00:11

Peter Wrinch: I'm glad you said that because I. I think that if I like started with why I would like we might be there for a long time and it might feel. Yeah.

01:00:20

Ellen Keith Shaw: And make these in the order we're going.

01:00:24

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:00:27

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah. So we'll reverse engineer it. And it's 1233. So just so I'm kind of time boxing us a little bit. Maybe we spend like 15 minutes kind of going through this exercise and then see where we're at. Yeah, okay. All right. So yeah, if you talk James and I kind of fill this in.

01:00:51

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. So I think this question of who has been like, it's been pretty. It's both like, been a question I've had and also like, it's been really clear if I look at like what's coming towards me. So I would say, like, primarily what's coming towards me is retreat center senior leaders. And it's almost exclusively the executive director or CEO. I would say that. And then I would go to like kind of that operating budget model. It's like the way I always think about orgs is it's like a million and less, A million to five plus. And so the only orgs that I have as client. Well, that's not 100% true, but the majority of orgs I have as clients are over a million operating and most of them are in the 5 million category. So when I think about my offering, my pricing, I actually don't think it's for people. The majority of them are not going to be in the category of less than a million dollars annual operating budgets.

01:02:23

Ellen Keith Shaw: And if we. I guess we don't really need to. Doesn't sound to me pigeonhole this number in particular to like an ideally 5 million, because I'm hearing you say that.

01:02:34

Peter Wrinch: It stays interesting yeah, exactly. Like, you know, James and I have been working with Reiko. Reiko does not fit in that category. He's way below 1 million, but incredibly interesting. And. Yeah. And then the other thing that's there and the WHO that seems consistent across is they're stuck. There are people who are stuck in some way, and it's usually stuck. The sort of common threads are they've got a big vision and want to do something that's almost actually consistent across. Or they're in. And some are emerging. Like, Reiko would be an example of emerging. Right. The Alabama Project is a example of emerging. And then some are stuck in a transition and usually generational, which. A lot of these centers are like, the legacy centers are.

01:03:50

Ellen Keith Shaw: The. The big vision is they have a big vision but can't. But are having trouble.

01:03:53

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. Like, it's interesting, right? Like, the big vision there kind of translates into, like, rebirth. Like, some form of rebirth. But it's. It's not like it's. It's not like they're gonna. I mean, most of the ones I'm talking about are not. They're not looking to shift the whole dynamic of the place. They're just, like, really looking to imagine anew. That makes sense. But it's usually. Usually from financial imperative. So, like, an example I could give is, like. So I. Early last year, I started talking to Esalen. Well, Esalen has no financial imperative to change. They are making $5 million a year. So they have no. They sort of know they should change, but they have no financial imperative to do so. So they were not interested.

01:04:51

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah.

01:04:53

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:04:54

Ellen Keith Shaw: That's interesting.

01:04:55

Peter Wrinch: And I think that, like, in some ways, some of those two pieces I shared, like, they can be quite threatening to people who are not interested in change.

01:05:08

Ellen Keith Shaw: Say that again. What.

01:05:10

Peter Wrinch: So those two pieces of, like, work that I shared, which is really, like. Those two probably underscore my brand better than anything at the current moment, particularly the. I'm left wondering. To an organization that has no problem with their business model. They read that and, like, this is a direct quote from someone at Esalen. Like, we have no interest in that. Like, that. What you're writing. We're all good.

01:05:35

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah.

01:05:36

Peter Wrinch: Like, don't. We don't want you in here. Even though, like, what happened to me with Esalen is a whole bunch of staff read that, and we're like, oh, my God. Yes. But leadership was just like, no, we're good.

01:05:51

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah. I mean, that's fair and fine. Right? You're not for everybody. And very interesting.

01:05:59

Peter Wrinch: And I have no interest in going into a place to fight them.

01:06:04

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah, yeah.

01:06:08

Peter Wrinch: That's what I did at Hollyhock for seven years. It's just like. It's really unenjoyable.

01:06:17

Ellen Keith Shaw: Financial imperative, like, clear need and desire to work together.

01:06:21

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. So that's pretty much like. That's pretty much the hoop. One thing I'll just say, as I'm looking at all these sticky notes, the majority of the people I talk to are women. Like, it's just really interesting. I mean, some of that's just like, who's in these centers for all the reasons, who's a nonprofit. But a lot of these centers, their core constituency is, like, women between the ages of 45 and 75, usually from some form of helping profession. And so on some level, those are the people who end up taking leadership roles in these. In these things, too.

01:07:10

Ellen Keith Shaw: And so that's like, across the board. It isn't just necessarily the women that are talking to you. That's an industry.

01:07:16

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, that's an industry thing. But I would say that, like, when I look at my client base right now, it's like, woman, man. Like, it's. It's pretty skewed towards women.

01:07:32

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah.

01:07:32

Peter Wrinch: Okay.

01:07:33

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah. And I saw that on your questionnaire, too, but it's good to. Good touch on it. Okay, let's move. Thank you. Let's move to our. What.

01:07:47

Peter Wrinch: So I think, like, this kind of is like, a bit of, like, what remains, like, a little unclear to me most of the time. But I mean, what I can tell you is, like. So this is where I would use the word strategic accompaniment or like, accompaniment. Philanthropic strategy is like, very clearly an offer.

01:08:14

Ellen Keith Shaw: So that's. That's kind of like. Yeah. And this is like, I'm always. These categories. I feel like, get kind of like a little.

01:08:25

Peter Wrinch: The what. How.

01:08:26

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah, the. A little, like, blurry for me when I did these backwards tonight. Oh, yeah. No, what? The vision. Like, what's inspiring you? The how. Is kind of like, for me, the. Is the accompaniment to me that high. How. Yeah, the what? The vision. Like, what. What inspires you? What is the brand you strive to accomplish? You know, this idea of the North Star. So I'm going to move this, I think, over to how.

01:09:03

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:09:04

Ellen Keith Shaw: And it's so easy to get these again. I get them confused all the time, but yeah, what totally. What. What inspires your brand and what's your. What's, like, kind of like the goal that you're trying to get to.

01:09:19

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. So I think, like, so on some Level. It's like, everything in the right place. Like, this is where, like, the kind of Dharma comes into me. It's like, it's like, how. And I'll use Mount Madonna as the example. It's like, how does Mount Madonna, like, live its best purpose? So, like, one way of saying that it's like, a little more sandwiched. It's like, how does this place, which is offering good in the world, thrive? You know, like, that's kind of my vision. It's or die. Like that. I want to be super clear about that. Like, I sometimes, like, my best advice or my best accompaniment is like, literally, you just need to wrap this thing up. Like, it. It had a time. And so I think what, like, inspires me. There's like, this, like, illumination is kind of like what I'm thinking or like, what I. I just had a vision in my head of, like, a house with the studs. Like, you know, it's like, it's. It's all. All the furniture's out. Like, it's. It's just like. And that maybe it's like this truth telling, you know, like, that we're honest with ourselves. Like, we're. We're real, you know, like, we're being real. Like. Like, one of my favorite moments in, like, some of my stuff is, like, when someone says, like, I wonder if this is really worth it. You know? Like, I think that's, like. I think you ask that question all the time. Like, is all the effort. One of the things I used to think about, like, the nonprofit sector more broadly and advocacy in general is like, there's a lot of advocacy orgs that she just finished, like, just die. Like, you. You know, you were created for a purpose. The purpose has shifted, like, because you're. You're sucking resources, right? So I think everything in its right place. Like, how do we align, like, what it is we're meant to do in the world with our activities?

01:12:09

Ellen Keith Shaw: It's kind of like with our actions. Activities.

01:12:11

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I try to use the word activities, but action is it. But it's like, why I say activities is because I feel like so many orgs, myself included, have got like. Like, I was talking about this on the call yesterday, too. It's like, anytime I have a good idea, a new idea, I go for a walk. I'm like, is that still a good idea? Then I write it down, and then I send it to, like, my most ruthless critic and say, is this a good idea? You know, And I'm trying to Balance between, like, you know, we have to make space for good ideas. But also, it's like, it's so easy to get, like, hypnotized by the, like, bright lights.

01:13:07

Ellen Keith Shaw: The shiny new idea. And so how does activities differ from actions? Or I'm just curious how that.

01:13:18

Peter Wrinch: Well, I think the reason why I use activities is because I think actions, like, meant to do in the world with our actions. It's very. There's, like, some language in our culture that talks about, like, your actions, but actually, like, what are you doing every single day? That's why I use the word activities. It's like, what. You know, like, one of the things I'll say to retreat centers is, like, if you want to know what you are, just look at your Google Calendar. That's what you are. And I think that the reason why I use activities is because actions, like, we can lie a lot about our actions, you know, but we can't really. Like, if. If I. If you shared me your Google Calendar, I'll reflect back to you what you are. And I. I sometimes try to be as, like, brutalist as that. Like, and I know that, too. Like, if I look at my Google Calendar and I'm, like, meeting with a lot of. Like, if I'm just wasting time, like, that's actually what my activities are.

01:14:24

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah, okay, I got it. And I do like that It's. It's an interest. Interesting that it's a different word than action, because action is. Yeah, it's everywhere. And so I would almost, like. Would we put coherence here?

01:14:39

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:14:41

Ellen Keith Shaw: Okay. All right. So how. Yeah. How do your. What?

01:14:47

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, so I think that's the accompaniment. I think that there's also, like, not sure if this, like, with how, like, how granular we want to be, but if we stay up, like, at a higher level, like, accompaniment, there's, like. I'm trying to get around this, like, concept of, like, provocation. Like, there's a provocation. Yeah, there's. There's some form of provocation that feels important to me.

01:15:35

Ellen Keith Shaw: That mean provocation. Using it is, like, pushing what they know.

01:15:39

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. Yeah. Or just like.

01:15:50

Ellen Keith Shaw: That'S 15. We're gonna do five more.

01:15:53

Peter Wrinch: When I say provocation, like, I mean just like. Yeah, just, like, pushing on it. And then I think the counter to. Well, I think provocation is a part of accompaniment. But, like, the. I would say the counter to provocation is this sort of, like, holding or compassion or.

01:16:18

Ellen Keith Shaw: Attunement. Okay.

01:16:22

Peter Wrinch: So it's not provocation for the Sake of provocation. I think that's like what I want to get across.

01:16:34

Ellen Keith Shaw: But to. But to uncover.

01:16:37

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, to uncover. To like illuminate. And the tactic is provocation.

01:16:46

Ellen Keith Shaw: Got you.

01:16:49

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. I think there's another thing in the how that I'm noticing and it's like. Like one of the things I know about these leaders is they're really overwhelmed and they're really like under resourced most of the time. And I'm not that way anymore. So there's like a. There's like a lightness. Like I'm not. I think I'm not like holding the. The like drudgery of it. Whereas like, sometimes these leaders are. And so like, I'm. I'm noticing on my calls and like with people, I'm. I'm often like a bit of a. I'm like a bit of a brighter light.

01:17:52

Ellen Keith Shaw: I'm. It's like. I don't know if this is different than a loom or if this is getting at it, but it. You're. You're like, not in it. So you're able to like, come in and provide this perspective. It's like seeing the forest from the trees idea.

01:18:09

Peter Wrinch: Totally. Well, I'll give you a tactical example. So, like, I'm working on this agenda for next week, Watershed. And I'm really thinking about like. Like, you know, there's a version of.

01:18:22

Ellen Keith Shaw: Of.

01:18:22

Peter Wrinch: Of what we're doing at watershed that like, people might call strategic planning. And like, you show up at 9, like, you dive into it, you're like. And I'm not that, like, I like. I mean, I push my edges even. There's stuff I'm just. I have some discomfort with, but I'm like, how do we like, dance in the room? And then I'm like picturing for like, people dancing in the room, like, oh God. But like, I've just been through so many of those things that I'm like. I'm willing to bring like somatic and joy to different things. And it's not my like, natural necessarily. My natural is a little bit more like bookish. But. But I, I actually am starting to see that as part of the. How is like not showing up and like cranking through a whole bunch of like, this and that. It's actually like, yeah, we're gonna like, play our favorite song and like dance around. As embarrassing as that is for me personally.

01:19:31

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah, but you're just creating something that they're not otherwise experiencing.

01:19:39

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:19:41

Ellen Keith Shaw: Okay, so I think how. How's an interesting one. And I Think, you know, I'll share a link to this, and if you, like, you can keep adding to it or revisit it where the how gets really. I mean, all this is interesting, but the how can also inform how you're thinking about your offer page or, you know, how you're articulating. So that's kind of the value of the how. Let's spin not to, like, push your purpose into two minutes, but let's spend a couple minutes just so we're touching into this. And again, if you want to return to it, if you don't have time, we can come back to it next meeting if it makes sense to bring it back up. Yeah. So, yeah, the.

01:20:28

Peter Wrinch: So I think, like, the purpose and this, like, kind of goes back to the word I said last time. It was, like, this dharmic path, right? So it's like, everything in its right place and, like, how to align with our, like, best cosmic purpose, I guess, or instruction. And so, like, one of the things that is, like, making me think, as I'm saying this is like, I. I was at a dinner recently, and there were two people from an organization, and they both seemed miserable. Like, they were. But, like, it not only seemed like they kind of talked about how it's pretty brutal. And I was just like, you know, I listened. I was very, like, very holding compassion, active listening, attunement. But when I felt like it was reasonable to do, I said, like, you know, you're both, like, highly employable. Like, there's no reason you have to stay there. And I think at the, like, core of what's going on for me, under there is, like, this is bad, Dharma. This is. This is bad. Like, this is not right. Like, not only is there, like, some deep compassion for the person in their experience, but there's like, this is, like, this is not everything in its right place.

01:21:50

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah.

01:21:54

Peter Wrinch: So there. There's that. And then I think the other thing that we haven't quite talked about is, like, if I think about retreat centers, if I do, like, I often do, is this, like, network of points of light. And through that network of point of light, they can accomplish way more than they can as individuals. And so if that. If that network of light was healthy, like, what could that possibly do for all of us, you know, for, like. Yeah, have y' all read Dark Matter? Have you ever seen it on Apple tv? It's very good. And it's basically this story about this guy who's, like, traveling through time and trying to find his way back home. And he ends up in this. Like, he keeps going through these worlds, and the worlds are like his world. It's New York City, but in a different dimension. And one dimension he ends up in, and he explores, but then, like, goes back to the time thing and tries to find his own dimension, is what he called, like, a softer, kinder version of our dimension. And so, anyways, he's got this partner he's traveling with, and she decides to stay there. And I'm like, that's the version of the world we could have if retreat centers. Like, Al. Just think about Trump. And it's like, that is not a product of our kindest nature, you know, and that. That nature is in us all. Like, we are. We're all Trumps, you know, but we're also, all, like, Gandhis. And so it's like, how do you. How do you. Like, as. As. Like, Titchnod Han would say, like, how do you feed the better seeds?

01:23:50

Ellen Keith Shaw: 100%. Yeah. My son is 11 and has an ex. An incredibly. I mean, he's a very deep feeler. Like, you can walk in the room, and he'll know what you feel about him or how you're. How you're thinking. And he has, like, the most negative take on the world right now. But, like, the world is full of, like, bad people, and, like, we're screwed. And I'm just trying to. It's so. It's so sad to me because I'm like, well, your lens. We all have this lens. Dark matter sounds like a lens, you know, and you can look at it. You know, you could be there if you wanted. His uncle's that way. My. Yeah, we know people that in that realm. It's a really scary realm. So how do you, anyway, very much relate to softer, kinder world and that. That is available to us. And I could see how your work would have a wider impact.

01:24:40

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, it's like, I. I will tell you, like, I had this experience at Mount Madonna when I went there in June. Like, they are, like, softer, kinder people. Like, they. Because they had a guru for 40 years, and he just, you know, I don't know anything about, like, what that means, but he radiated that energy, and they all grew up there. Like, it was, you know, lived on place.

01:25:11

Ellen Keith Shaw: Beautiful. Thank you. That was really interesting for me. Okay, I'm just gonna take these guys over here. James, how are we doing? Because I know you have things you want to do, too, and we have a half an hour. I can definitely, like, you know, hang my mic and Pass it to you, because I. I do also want to look at what Peter shared. Maybe, maybe. I'm thinking before kicking this off, we. We do some of the visual discussion, and then if we have time, I can circle back to this. Otherwise, like, pick it up. It's not super essential.

01:25:57

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. Why don't we hop over to the visual? I'm going to share.

01:26:06

Ellen Keith Shaw: That sound. All right, Peter?

01:26:07

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah.

01:26:13

James Redenbaugh: And I think that I mainly just want to introduce the visual discussion at this point because I want to build on what we've just been exploring, and I'm having loads of ideas of, you know, what visual things that can come out of that exercise, these exercises. But here's some stuff I've put together and, yeah, I'll just kind of intro it real quick. So some of the points of inspiration that you shared, some screenshots from the YouTube videos over here, some potential sources of color, pulling out some colors from there. And then the images from the mood board that we looked at last week. I've also found a bunch more to look at and kind of roughly arrange them into different themes and then named them. The horizontal themes are a little clearer, and then the terms on top kind of roughly represent the. The columns. It's not perfect, but just because I do keep feeling like there's a. A geometric, somewhat eclectic textural possibility in the aesthetic. And there's a number of ways that we want to go about that, and whichever way we go about that, I want it to be a clear and powerful choice that reinforces and expresses the brand. So these are kind of different potential starting places from more geometric explorations or looking at, like, points of color, points of light, and different things that we could do with that. To collage to more, I say Islamic esque geometric patterning, leaning to the organic Russian revolutionary inspiration, especially Kandinsky, one of my favorite artists. And the image of a canopy keeps coming to mind as well. Trees or aerial views from above are kind of big systems, organisms, and there's a lot in here that we can start to see. Can be a palette for telling a story about the. The dimensions that you work and play in and the. The realms that your clients exist in and. And how you can help them see the territory and move through it and grow sustainably and abundantly and, you know, paint the picture that the. The offering is one hand, simple and empty and circular, and on another hand, very ecosystemic and nuanced and multi perspectival and complex.

01:29:53

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:29:55

James Redenbaugh: So I think that the brand can balance Those things and also balance, you know, these are all more maximalist expressions. I think that we also need a minimalist view, you know, a minimalist container for expressions like these to fit into, you know, and that can be very inspired by Japanese aesthetic and modernist aesthetic. And, you know, we can. We can look at that. And I've also just started to pull in some potential fonts. Starting with the font you're already using, which looks like Helvetica new, and then playing with some possible alternatives in the San Serif family, for the most part, keeping things capitalized, logo. And then looking at, you know, what could a headline in the same family look like? And then these two down here. So I'm going to play with some Serif fonts.

01:31:03

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:31:04

James Redenbaugh: Which tell a slightly different story.

01:31:07

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:31:08

James Redenbaugh: And so, you know, I mainly just want to introduce this page now, see what might jump out of you, at you right away, but then have it as a resource that you can come back to if you want to drop things on here, leave comments, notes, whatever.

01:31:24

Peter Wrinch: Cool.

01:31:24

Ellen Keith Shaw: Cool.

01:31:25

James Redenbaugh: Yeah.

01:31:26

Peter Wrinch: Well, thanks, James. A few things do jump out and I'll. I just. I gotta rearrange my screen for a sec. Hold on. So. Well, thanks. Yeah. So when I look at this here, you can see my cursor. Okay. So the. The sort of images that sort of feel like. I feel like moved towards are some of, like this one. Those two, they're quite. I don't quite know why I'm interested in them, and I don't know that I like, would want to see them on a website, but they pull me in. The other ones are sort of like this one and this one. These three here, I think, are quite interesting to me. This one in particular, quite interesting. And then, as we said, I. I.

01:32:53

James Redenbaugh: Love that the other two that you just.

01:32:55

Peter Wrinch: Oh, sorry. This one, this one. These three. Yeah, and this one. Yeah, yeah, those three. And then. I love that Russian, you know, continues to follow me around. You know, I've spent a lot of time using images like this one. In fact, like, I used to use images like this one in my Hollyhock presentations, and people would get so pissed. So I'm. I'm a little bit more. I think, like, now I'm a little bit more interested in this kind of thing. Like, more of these, like, more abstract concepts than, like, direct Soviet art. Yeah. And then. And then if I, like, come over to this, you know, between, like, that version of 1979 and Sunblind, I think there's a lot of imagery, like, in Both those videos, it's like, there's something about the diffused light that really, like, speaks to me, particularly in 1979 video. But there's also, like, in that video, there's something about the diffused light and the. The geography that feels very familiar to retreat centers. And then I think with Sunblind, it's like, so much more about the, like, human connection in that video that feels really present to me. And then on the left side, the, like, Taiko imagery, I, I'm, like, just a big fan of the taiko imagery, and. And then the palette is. Is, like, starting. Yeah. Like, it. I, I like the colors that are emerging there. Like, I, I think those are. Those are the colors, you know, those. I think that if I had to, like, narrow in, I would narrow in on, like, these blues as opposed to this one. So the darker blues and maybe even this one. Yeah. And then when it comes to the browns, I would probably. That's hard because they all look so good that I would probably be in this category. Those two. Yeah. And then the greens and probably this one and this one. So I guess it's all a bit darker. On the darker edge.

01:35:59

James Redenbaugh: Yeah.

01:36:00

Peter Wrinch: And then.

01:36:04

James Redenbaugh: If we're talking about white, you know, we talked about not having stark whites, solid color backgrounds, but if we have darker elements on a light background, do you think it would be a more pure white or the crane spectrum?

01:36:28

Peter Wrinch: Like an awe. Like an awe. I think between those two colors, I would probably choose the pure white. Yeah.

01:36:42

Ellen Keith Shaw: I'm looking at that Tycho, like, the poster above with that kind of whatever color.

01:36:46

Peter Wrinch: Oh, this.

01:36:47

Ellen Keith Shaw: That one. I think that's. That. I don't know how that's kind of interesting, too.

01:36:52

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:36:53

Ellen Keith Shaw: Maybe look at.

01:36:54

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:36:55

Ellen Keith Shaw: Is that feels. Yeah. Just because I know you like that artwork.

01:37:02

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, totally.

01:37:07

James Redenbaugh: Cool.

01:37:10

Peter Wrinch: This going today, this trees on my land, and it's. It's 235 years old, and some guy drove by and was yelling at me about the tree that it's going to fall on my house. And, like, you got to get that check down. All right. Dude.

01:37:31

James Redenbaugh: Why do we always take the trees down? Why don't we take that?

01:37:34

Peter Wrinch: I know. I, I, the guy was, like, literally really jiving on it about taking down the tree. I'm like, dude, that tree's 230 years old. I did. I found this tool online where you can type in, anyways, find a year of a tree, and it. It was literally born the day year of the Declaration of Independence.

01:37:52

Ellen Keith Shaw: Wow.

01:37:53

Peter Wrinch: Like, I'm not taking down the tree. Like we'll. We'll figure some other thing.

01:37:57

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, that's a house.

01:37:59

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, totally. Just.

01:38:03

Ellen Keith Shaw: You really got to do something about that house.

01:38:06

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, Exactly. The. The 50 year old house. Why is it here? Cool.

01:38:22

James Redenbaugh: Okay, great. Lots to play with here. Anything else you want to mention in the aesthetic realm?

01:38:36

Peter Wrinch: I think I want to. Just hold on just one sec. I just want to see something.

01:38:54

Ellen Keith Shaw: I will be right back, you guys. I'm gonna take a quick bio break.

01:38:57

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, I might. I might do the same. Cool. One thing here. I just want to share one thing. One thing I. I like can worry about is I don't want to end up like this. And I don't think you did. This website. I mean, I think it's cool for what it is, but it's just not the brand I want. Hi, Low. I don't know if you've checked it out. I'm going to run to the bathroom too, man.

01:39:22

James Redenbaugh: Sure.

01:39:30

Peter Wrinch: It.

01:41:10

James Redenbaugh: Peter. Random bathroom.

01:41:14

Ellen Keith Shaw: So what's about. What's about Hilo? I know I can. Sorry, I missed that.

01:41:21

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, no problem. Peter. You were just saying you. You want not.

01:41:26

Peter Wrinch: I don't want to end up like this. I. I like Hilo. There's something like. I. I like Hilo. And I know the folks and they're like related to Reiko and all those folks out there. But the like, cartooniness of it, I don't. I'm like, nah.

01:41:44

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. I. I feel so bad for Hilo. I know them too. And I watch them grow from the beginning. And these days, almost every single one of my clients tells me that they want. Not high level.

01:42:01

Peter Wrinch: Are you serious? That's hilarious.

01:42:04

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what it is. Usually they're talking like we're creating community platforms and social networks.

01:42:18

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:42:19

James Redenbaugh: And community experiences. I feel like they're. There's things that I like about their landing page that makes it feel like the app is going to be really like dynamic and ecosystemic. But then on the inside it's like a grid, you know, it's so grid based and list based.

01:42:44

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:42:45

James Redenbaugh: And then it's designed to not be addicting. So then people don't want to use it.

01:42:51

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, it's not addicting.

01:42:55

James Redenbaugh: But the homepage is like so much and so much AI.

01:42:59

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:43:01

James Redenbaugh: Like too sweet. Too much sugar.

01:43:04

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, totally. Too much sugar. Exactly.

01:43:12

James Redenbaugh: But Figma, this might be a better precedent, something we're working on.

01:43:30

Peter Wrinch: Here.

01:43:30

James Redenbaugh: It is. We're doing a lot with collage, but there's a lot more space to breathe.

01:43:36

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:43:37

James Redenbaugh: Minimal.

01:43:38

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:43:40

James Redenbaugh: Weaving in the natural images with people and symbols and things like that.

01:43:48

Peter Wrinch: Exactly. Yeah.

01:43:51

Ellen Keith Shaw: Beautiful.

01:43:52

Peter Wrinch: I think, like you said, space to breathe, feels real, doesn't feel AI. Generated.

01:44:02

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, yeah.

01:44:07

Ellen Keith Shaw: Did you get to talk a little bit about the typography just to kind of.

01:44:11

Peter Wrinch: Oh, right, yeah, thanks for that. Yeah. So I, I unfortunately have a lot of opinions about fonts, so what I would say that this one I like. Cool. This one, I, I would say this one too. Like the top one is the one I'm using, so the top three, I think are really, you know, I even these ones too. Basically all the San Serif. Is that what it is? But the bottom ones. Yeah, I don't, I'm not a fan of Sarah Serif fonts, so.

01:44:58

James Redenbaugh: No problem. Yeah, Great.

01:45:02

Ellen Keith Shaw: Got it.

01:45:07

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. I, I don't mind the Helvetica new, but it's not uncommon, you know.

01:45:21

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, totally. Totally.

01:45:22

James Redenbaugh: One of the most common fonts.

01:45:24

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:45:26

James Redenbaugh: Which could be, like an intentional irony, but I think that we could find something that's a little more unique, a little more character.

01:45:35

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, I, I, you know, sorry, I'm just gonna zoom in a bit. The headlines look like this. I think I like that in these two here. These. Maybe this one I had to choose. Yeah, yeah. What I like about the capitalized is I like the clean space in between.

01:46:08

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah.

01:46:08

Peter Wrinch: I think if I had to choose, I might chose. Choose this. This one.

01:46:14

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, yeah. Josephine Sands is one of my favorite fonts. It's super geometric.

01:46:22

Peter Wrinch: Yes.

01:46:23

James Redenbaugh: But not boring. And it's got fun angles.

01:46:28

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, yeah.

01:46:31

James Redenbaugh: The round shapes are very round, which fits your logo. Well. I don't love the body font. It's not bad. And, you know, of course we'll look at things in context, but it pairs well with, like, Montserrat or something that's just super readable and clear.

01:46:52

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, there's like a little bit too much space in the body font or something. I don't quite know what it is.

01:47:01

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, you don't want people to notice the body font. You want them to, you know, I mean, you don't really ever want them to notice the font, but you want the font to be saying something in the headlines and the logo. Yeah, the body. You just want people to be able to read.

01:47:17

Peter Wrinch: Totally. Yeah. Cool, cool.

01:47:28

James Redenbaugh: Okay, great. Feel free to add to this also. Feel free to keep adding to the grant guidelines, doc, as I move along. And. Yeah, Ellen, I'll hand. Hand back over to you, see if there's anything Else you want to talk about while we're here?

01:47:52

Ellen Keith Shaw: I feel like we're good for today. That was a lot. So, yeah, our brains, you know, wrap it up. And I would just say I'm gonna synthesize some of this. And I think that would be the next step would be for you and I, Peter, to start thinking about content and like, site mapping, you know, have on your site. And usually I create like a Google Doc and have my clients add to that. And I, you know, use pages to separate the different page content and provide feedback however much you want. I really love, like, guiding people in that process.

01:48:39

Peter Wrinch: And I think, Ellen, I'm cool to meet next week. With James's out getting married, I'm. I'm heading to New York on the Wednesday, so the Monday or Tuesday, I'm pretty free.

01:48:54

Ellen Keith Shaw: Okay. We seem to be really on a roll with this Tuesday time.

01:48:59

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. So 11:30 Tuesday.

01:49:01

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah. Let me see. What is this something? Actually, let me see here. Maybe can we do Monday this time? I actually have an appointment at noon on. Oh. Oh, sorry. Nope. Okay. I have two meetings. Let me see. I'm working out this here. I could do 12. 12:30 on Tuesday. Would that work?

01:49:32

Peter Wrinch: Yep.

01:49:34

Ellen Keith Shaw: Okay, let's do that.

01:49:35

Peter Wrinch: Okay.

01:49:36

James Redenbaugh: That's an hour later.

01:49:37

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:49:38

Ellen Keith Shaw: Yeah. Like 12:30 to. You know, we can put 2:30 and.

01:49:43

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, definitely. See how it goes. Yeah. Cool.

01:49:47

James Redenbaugh: I just duplicated the calendar invite, and I'll invite myself so that fireflies will show up. But I'll be on a little mini in the Poconos or something. Get to some mountains, and probably don't want to drive too far.

01:50:12

Peter Wrinch: Well, thank you all. Good luck next week, James. Have fun, and we'll talk to you soon.

01:50:21

James Redenbaugh: Thank you so much.

01:50:22

Peter Wrinch: Okay.

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