00:00:05

James Redenbaugh: Good to see you both. How are you guys doing?

00:00:13

Peter Wrinch: Pretty good, Pretty good. I'm just. Yeah, just, like, in it today. Like, met some new people. It's always interesting. Yeah. How about you, Alan?

00:00:27

Ellen S: Yeah, I'm pretty good. I'm. I'm. I don't know if I mentioned this, Peter. I know James knew I was at a grief retreat all weekend, and so I'm kind of still feeling a little, like, blasted open by that, but, yeah, I'm good.

00:00:43

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. Nice.

00:00:48

Ellen S: How are you, James?

00:00:50

James Redenbaugh: I'm doing well. Very much in the midst of many wedding things, but it's all coming together and starting to get really excited about less than two weeks.

00:01:08

Peter Wrinch: Wow.

00:01:08

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. This is the last weekend before, so also my birthday weekend. I so probably be woodworking. That's one of my big tasks is building this. This portal. And yeah, overall, feeling really good at. Good about it all and excited to. To dive into the well of Uncommon Partners today and see what comes out of it, the. The core of this planet, of this being. So, yeah, maybe we can start again with some. Some silence. And, Peter, if there's anything you want to share to. To bring us into that, please do so.

00:02:15

Peter Wrinch: I may have said this to you before, James, but I. I have this coach who's been with me for, like, five years. It started at Hollyhock, and. But then I. When I came out on my own, I. It was like, one of the first investments I made. And there are many things he brought to me, like, over the years at Hollyhock, and, you know, he kind of laid down a whole bunch of stuff, and. And one of the things he laid down was Deepak Chopra's seven spiritual laws. And I, like, rolled my eyes. I was like, no backing way. But then everything else that he laid down really worked for me, and so I just picked this little book up, like, five, maybe four years ago, and now I read it, like, every morning, and it actually has had such a deep impact on me. So I'll just read something from this so y' all can roll your eyes at Deepak with me. But he's got something going on. I'm just looking for anything that sort of. Oh, here's a good one. Okay, here we go. In every moment, we have an access. We have access to an infinity of choices. Some choices are made consciously, while others are made unconsciously. Unfortunately, a lot of our choices are made unconsciously, and therefore, we don't think they are choices. And yet they are. As a result of conditioning, our choices are Often triggered by people and circumstances into unpredictable outcomes. The best way to use this law is to step back and witness the choices you are making in every moment. Just add one thing to that. So one of the ways that I've, like, used that. Those lines in my life. That's Tuesday's loss. I read it every Tuesday. Is like, what am I practicing? If everything is practiced, it's like, what am I practicing when I. And it's like, it's so hard not to be in judgment about it. You know, like. Like, okay, I'm going to watch Netflix. So, like, I'm actually practicing watching Netflix. Like, I'm actually. That's what I do instead of doing something else. The tough part is not to be in judgment of it, but to be aware of the practice. Oh, like, I'm gonna go to YouTube and like, watch clips about Donald Trump. It's like, oh, I'm actually in practice. I'm in practice of that as opposed to doing something else. So that. That's been. That's the point of that. That's been like, really powerful for me over the last five years.

00:06:04

James Redenbaugh: Beautiful. I want to check out the other seven.

00:06:09

Ellen S: Yeah, me too. You guys, I'll be right back. My dog's out there in this impromptu meeting. It just started right outside of the tour of this co working space.

00:06:19

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, no problem.

00:06:22

Peter Wrinch: Your dog is what? Sure. Dog is wild in the co working space.

00:06:25

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. Oh, I want a dog. 37 of dogs. So today we have a list of exercises, explorations, and experiments that. That are possibilities for today. They're all things that either I and or Ellen will. Will lead us into and we'll see what the time calls for. What most wants to be explored here. But to start, I'm curious what's top of mind for you, Peter around Uncommon Partners. I saw you started exploring the questionnaire and. Yeah. What's on the surface.

00:07:24

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, thanks for that. I. There's a couple things on the surface for me since our last call so I can remember, like, the first process like this I was ever in. It was like I was working. I was like, pretty new to, like, working in social change advocacy, and I had never experienced anything kind of like it. And what I would say is that over the years, I don't know, I want to say I've been in like a handful of these, like maybe five, but I've never been in one for something I created. So I can feel in me like a little bit of like almost like awkwardness or shyness. I can just like. And So I just, I'll just like say that right out loud. It's like, it's kind of. It feels very like real for me, you know, and like many things in the last year have felt really real for me. It's like I'm actually doing the thing I've always been like, in an org that had a founder and now I'm like. So that's just like a real awareness I have. And then I think the other thing. I was on a call this morning. As I mentioned, I met like a new person who, you know, it's very typical how this person came to me. They sort of like, it was a, it was like an introduction, like, oh, we're starting a retreat center, movement based retreat center in Massachusetts. Oh, you should talk to Peter. And so I get on call with the guy. He's lovely. And we have like a lovely conversation that's really connective. Like, it's very like, there's a lot of similarities. And at the end, the last like six minutes, like, you know, I've been in sales before, so it's like actually not awkward for me, but it's a bit rushed, I would say. It's like I'm kind of going like, oh. And like, this is what I do, you know, like, because he kind of asked and I'm not clear if like this is just worth. We're like, I, like I'm not clear from the onset often, like whether this is like a sales call or it's like a. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's just, oh, you should talk to that guy. He knows what he's talking about. And, and one of the thoughts I had because I had seen your document was it was like, oh, this is such a great time for this work. Because on some level, like, I'm not a hard sales guy. Even when I was in hard sales and had a quote of a million dollars, like, I was never. I was like a relational salesperson. So it's very helpful to have like a website that I could be like, oh, like, go check out my website, see if it resonates with you. But instead what I'm doing is sort of rushing through a few things and then going like, go take a walk. Like, see if that resonates with you. So those are kind of the two things that are popping for me right now is like, it's a very good time and I feel a little self conscious in it.

00:11:00

James Redenbaugh: Wonderful. One of the things I wanted to get into today is just exploring your you know, biographical you a little bit, getting to know you a bit deeper. What's brought you to this point? What's informed your journey? Yeah. So maybe just give, just broadly, what do you think is important for us to know about. About you and who you are and what's shaped you?

00:11:43

Peter Wrinch: I think it's a. I think it's good question because I think, like, what I'm noticing. One of the questions I have about the business, you know, it's. Its name is Uncommon Partners. It's not me alone. Right. And so I'm like, really thinking often about, like, how do I bring people in and how do I bring them in, you know, and like, there's no shit. There's no small share of people who are like, hey, like, I could do this thing with you and. And I'm. I'm cautious. Not cautious. I'm just thinking about it, I guess, because I'll go back to this call this morning. One of the things that I noticed right away was this guy on the call who, like, he used this word. He matured through Occupy Wall Street. So it's like I. I'm older than him, but I can speak that language. Like, I have, you know, 25 years of, like, social change work. And what I'm starting to realize is that, like, that's part of the offering. Even though, like, I don't lead with it's like, it's very much. There's like a comfort level that I. And part of that, I think is like wisdom. Like wisdom of just experience and, you know, maybe being 50. But it's like. So I think, to answer your question, the things that, like, led me here, or that's like, part of it is where to start. But like, one of the things that I know has been part of my journey is like, the way I grew up. So lower middle class, single mom, family, four kids. When I went, it was weird. It's like when I went to undergraduate, I noticed that, like, that was a bit of a superpower. Like, that upbringing was different than the people I went to school with. And I think it's kind of carried through. Like, it's like a lot of the people that have been around me my whole career didn't grow up that way, like, because it was like advocacy and then politics, then retreat centers. It's all these, like, really driven people. It was funny. I was on a call last week. I'm part of this, on the board of a national. I think I said this last call. A national, like, the move on of Canada So it's called lead now in Canada. And this woman who is doing the strategic planning did this. She did this icebreaker, she called it. And she was like, what would be one thing you would tell your teenage self? And it was so funny to me because I was like, I would tell my teenage self to get his together and work harder. And every single other person on the call was the exact opposite. They were like, I would tell everyone on that. I would tell my teenage self to chill out. It's gonna be fine. Don't be so anxious. Don't work so hard. I was like, oh, damn. Like, And I think that. I think I might have said this on the last call, but I was. A couple years ago, I ended up at this billionaire's house, and I was like, meeting with them, and they're young. Like, I think, James, about your age. That's young to me. And they were like. We kind of had these pleasantries, and I was just like. When the pleasantries stopped, I was like, so what the fuck do you do? And they burst out laughing. They're like, no one ever talks like that to us. Like, they're like, we. The guy said this thing, and this is like. These are. These are, like, serious billion, like, top 20 families in the. In the world, billionaires. They said, we can't go into a room without everyone kissing our ass and laughing at all our jokes. And. And the guy was like, and I know they're not funny. And. And. And so I think, like, this. This is like, part of, like, how I grew up is like. Like. And, like, you know, part of it was performance to those billionaires. Like, I knew they would kind of be, like, a bit tickled by that. But also part of it was like, I don't. I'm just like. I'm not gonna pretend like, you're better than me. You know, we're just gonna roll. Yeah. So that's kind of where I would start on, like. And I think that's part of what's going on in Uncommon Partners is like, I'm very. Like, I've gotten a lot better at, like, compassion over the years, but I'm really also not scared to be like. Like, Especially with rich people. So. Yeah. So basically, like, from there, I. I went to. So hard to say this out loud, but I. I guess I went to an elite university that. And I studied Soviet Revolution and Buddhism, two separate things. I went to grad school and studied revolution again. And then I started working in advocacy. So I think, like, all of those things at Least they, For me, the story I tell myself is they give me a lot of like confidence in a lot of different spaces. And then I would say the. I would say that I've been a bit over indexed on cerebral for a long time. And then like definitely in the categories of people I'm in, like, I would say over indexed on cerebral abilities. And I would say in the last 10 years with Hollyhock, I became a lot more interested in like somatic experience and like intuitive knowledge. And so like James, like we met through Reiko. Reiko would be the example for me of like intuitive knowledge, somatic experience. And I think that like my. I think that this is, this space I can operate in. It's like I can be in rooms where people are talking about land, listening and like spirits and ancestors and. But I can also translate that to like, you know, foundations and the over index cerebral politicians, you know. Yeah.

00:19:15

James Redenbaugh: Is that arnica?

00:19:18

Peter Wrinch: It's. It's something like that, yeah. It's got three and some other things in it.

00:19:28

James Redenbaugh: Wonderful. So what else is. I'm hearing some of what makes Uncommon partners uncommon. And what else sets you apart?

00:19:56

Peter Wrinch: Think the other thing that I.

00:20:17

James Redenbaugh: That's weird.

00:20:18

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, there's. There's so many like weaves here that I'm like trying to. Okay, so the one that's coming up for me is like when I first started in advocacy, I had a, like a really strong mentor who's probably 10 years older than me. And it was actually in that brand thing that this like the first time I ever went through like a branding process and he said this thing that really was it. It's clearly made a deep impression on me. He was like.

00:21:05

James Redenbaugh: The.

00:21:05

Peter Wrinch: Because were advocating for like homeless folks, drug users and sex workers. So it's like very tight stuff in the poorest neighborhood in Canada. And he was like the world already. And now I, I say this and I also realize his psychology in this. So I'm not sure it's like 100% me, but he's like, the world already believes we're shit, so you have to better. And I think that like I've carried that through a nonprofit career, mostly nonprofit, that like there is no excuse for being lackluster like you know, like there's this. Sometimes it comes up and I, I like. It's funny how often I do hear it. Like it's not often, but it's like once a year. Oh, it's fine. We're non profit. And it's always hit me the wrong way. And so I think that part of the brand of Uncommon and part of what is alive in me is we need to better. That this is an enrollment game, and you don't enroll people in failure. People don't enroll in failure. They enroll in success. They enroll and, like, you know, it's like, it's not quite that black or white, but, like, they enroll, I believe, like, they enroll in things that make them feel good on all sorts of different levels. And. And so there's, like, a part of this business, of this offering, of this, like, worldview that is, like, make this good, whatever. Good means. Fun, joyful, impactful, and just part of that, like, another thread. And this, like, kind of links to Buddhism, too, is like the. In the concept of Buddhism. You know, in Buddhism, they. I mean, it's in all religions, but, like, in Buddhism, they have this concept of Buddha nature. It's like we are whole beings no matter what, and if we just, like, listen to that, then we are like vessels for the universe, you know? And I think that. I think that I've been on that journey for a long time. Like, that, like, there is a cosmic something. I don't pretend to know, and I don't want to convince anyone, but there is, like, a cosmic something, whether it came from the Big Bang or whatever it was. And it is only through stillness and listening that we can execute that. But there's also a confidence game. You know, Like, I. When I was 30, like, I just didn't. I didn't have the confidence to listen to that voice. And now I do more. And I think I. I struggle with that because I don't want to be, like, totally insane like that. That's like. The edge is. I don't want to, like, I'm. You know, and I work with a lot of people who, like, definitely step outside my edges, and I'm just like, okay. And I, you know, I have some, like, I'm. I'm not, like, I'm, like, scared, you know, I'm scared of the edges. But I'm. I'm, like, often thinking about, like, you know, if I'm doing a strategic planning with someone. Like, I have this thing in New York in three weeks, and I'm like, how can I make it, like, bit weird, you know, by listening to my own voice? Not. Not, like, weird for the sake of weird. Yeah.

00:25:12

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. Wonderful. I want to share a little anecdote from my life that might be relevant. When I was in art school and kind of found myself there as a refugee from the Architecture world and falling fast in love with art making and was able to find these states where I felt like the art was making me. And the best art stuff I was making by far just kind of came through me. And I was really uncomfortable with my professors giving me praise for it. I was like, but wait, it, you know, it, I, I can't take credit for this. I'm just this kid. And it also, I could see that edge of insanity as well. Like what could happen if I gave myself over to that completely and I didn't go down that path of continuing to be an artist. It's a long story, but I had a, a near death experience that changed me pretty profoundly. And I ended up not making my own art for a very long time. But 15 years later, coming back to the experience of surrendered creativity, realizing it's no longer about what can happen through me, but simply put, it's about what can happen through us. And I really, but including me, and I really feel you in that same place as well. And the way that you're describing working with others and the way that you responded to the questions, it's about bringing your whole self feeling fully resourced, empty, available, and inviting others into that and then walking into the unknown together and then the possibilities are endless. And I feel like there's a much lower risk for insanity.

00:27:54

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:27:54

James Redenbaugh: Because insanity comes from like the solipsism and the narcissism of the artist and the isolation when everybody just hurls praise on them and needs them to perform. But it's not about that, it's about what are we here to create together on this land? How do we listen to the land? How do we listen to each other? How do we listen to the ancestors and the future generations?

00:28:19

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:28:20

James Redenbaugh: And I really feel you doing that.

00:28:26

Peter Wrinch: Thanks, James. That's deeply resonant. I think one other thing I've been thinking about recently is like even today, like I was texting with someone I was at Hollyhock with and she's still there. And so I'm like cautious. Like I, I, we are, you know, we're friends, but she's like, how's it going? And honestly my reaction, my answer to that question right now is I'm fucking living the dream. Like I'm truly fucking living the dream. But I, I, that's what I'm cautious about. I don't write that back because I don't want to like make her feel bad in any Way. But I'm like doing my best working with the best people, making way more money. Like, it's just all the things. And I was walking. I don't know if I told you guys last time, but we're doing a reno here. And so I have this like scaffolding of a deck, and I was like walking along the deck and I was like walking on this very thin path and I was like, maybe this will all go away. Like, I have the, you know, like that scarcity mind. Like, oh my God. Like, maybe it's just good because it's year one and like, but. And that's like, often what I work with my coach on is like moving from like that scarcity, like contracting thoughts to like. Yeah, yeah.

00:30:04

James Redenbaugh: Razor's edge.

00:30:05

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, totally. Totally.

00:30:09

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. But contrasted with big space. Yeah. What were you going to say?

00:30:15

Ellen S: Only just that, you know, as humans, we want to like, dealing with the uncertainty.

00:30:22

Peter Wrinch: Right.

00:30:22

Ellen S: Is like the struggle. Like, we want to know. And then, like, that's why I'm so fascinated by this like, somatic component that you're talking about, or the weirdness or.

00:30:36

Peter Wrinch: The.

00:30:39

Ellen S: Teaching our bodies and our minds to like, let go, to see what's possible. But it's really inspiring. Like, we're all in that space.

00:30:47

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. Yeah, totally.

00:30:49

Ellen S: And yeah, so.

00:30:51

Peter Wrinch: So. So I. It's funny because in this call this morning, it's very great that I had this call this morning because it was like a new person. So I was like, I was basically saying that, like, you know, after 10 years of working in advocacy with marginalized folks and then four years of politics, I basically walked into Hollyhock as like a materialist. This is kind of what I mean, Ellen. It's like I. It's not that was a full materialist in any way because like, I obviously, I like, had a half a degree in Buddhism and like, even the advocacy org was like founded by an engaged Buddhist. And like, you know, but. But like these were very heavily over indexed, cerebral people, like all lawyers. So, you know, imagine. And so when I walked into Hollyhock, and I think those skills really mattered for Hollyhock. Hollyhock was kind of like, it was a bit like drifty. It was a bit like woo. It was like boomer led. It was a bit ungrounded is what I would say. And I remember sitting on a beach with like a mentor and he. He was like, you know, Peter, you can bring all your, like, Google all your spreadsheets, all your things, but there's like magic here and you have to hold that. And I was like, I was kind of like. Like I really love and respect this guy. So I listened, but I was like, whatever. And I would say that those first couple years, like, that's what I did. I brought like Google to a retreat, like a 40 year old retreat center, you know, who literally had no technology. Like they. It was crazy. But then when Covid hit and like things started getting hard, we started running on money. Like, it became really aware. I became really aware that like the materialist end game wasn't sufficient. Like there was no way you were just gonna like Google sheet your way out of this. And. And then I started listening more. I was like, oh, right. Like there's much more going on here, you know. And then I was at Reiko's place in Sebastian Landwell, and I was talking to this woman, Brenda, who I don't know if you know Brenda James, but Brenda, she. She's like a fellow traveler in retreat centers and she's a land listener. And she said this thing to me that just like truly blew my mind. She's like, yeah, like you were in those board meetings, like fighting with all those board members for years, but like the ancestors were also fighting. And I was just like, what? Like, I was like, oh my God, that's so true. Like, like I thought I could solve it by like just like presenting a really like great cerebral argument. But this was like multiple forces, you know, so that's what I mean. Like the somatic experience is like what's outside the cerebral, you know, as that is just one. And so when I think about like strategic planning, like, you know, I'll use this example, like I'm heading to this or watershed, which is in the Hudson Valley on September 24th. It's a married couple who are running it. They've been running it for 15 years. And it's like, of course there's so much more than like a cerebral concept in that room. Like they're married. Like, you know what I mean? Like I said to them, actually, in what call? I said, do y' all have a space you can talk about your marriage outside of your co directoring this org? Because like, there's a lot going on in that room that isn't just about like, let's business model this out. And sorry. And the last thing I'll say about this is I think as it relates to Uncommon Partners, it's like, how do I hold that? How do I transmit that to people that like, I'm not Just like, you know, like McKinsey strategic planning.

00:35:34

Ellen S: Well, that positions you. I mean, I think this is why you're having so much success. I mean, not only because of your network, but it's, you're a very, it is very uncommon. It is a distinct offer that they can't just go find it. And you're, you're unique, Peter, with your set of experiences and you're working with people who sounds like, if they're not already aware of it, that you can pull them in to a different way of thinking, that they might at least be open to it or minds a little bit exploded by a different way of looking at the way they've been looking at things.

00:36:07

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:36:13

James Redenbaugh: And I think our challenge on this website is because we can't simply list all the dimensions that Peter is listening from. We have to paint a picture and convey what you know. It doesn't even have to paint the whole picture or fully describe who you are. I feel like it more wants to be a, an expression of this, of what we're talking about. A resonant artifact that people can see and be like, oh, yeah, this is what I felt when I was on the call with Peter. You know, this resonates on the same vibration.

00:37:04

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:37:06

James Redenbaugh: It's not the whole picture, because it's not. The whole picture is way not two dimensional.

00:37:11

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:37:11

James Redenbaugh: And not fitting on a screen.

00:37:13

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:37:15

James Redenbaugh: And then the challenge is to have. How do we use words, how do we use images, how do we use graphics to tell the story and bring people into that resonance.

00:37:31

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. Two things that are popping for me off that, James, is so one is like, I think I wrote this somewhere in a blog post that like, really launched Uncommon. But retreat centers, broadly speaking, have. Have this exact problem that you just described. This is actually a problem or a challenge. I, I think it's also an opportunity, obviously, but very few nail it because there's something multi dimensional that happens at retreat centers and they all try to market, but the way they market is really one dimensional or best two dimensional. And so, like, I can speak from the Hollyhock experiences. Like, we, when I first started, we had a really strong marketer and her and I were great partners. And then she left during COVID and we never really recovered. We never really recovered from it. We never really got it back. So what retreat centers tend to do is they default to beautiful land photos. And because they're sort of going down this, like, resort, you know, like, it's like if we Knit like I'm sure if I say Mexico, we all like picture certain things, right? And so retreat centers try to do that. They start, they show these beautiful land photos. And so this is like, this is actually like a shared challenge I have with them. Is that like the offering is exactly what you said? It's like more like the feeling like, how did that guy that I was on the call with this morning, how did he actually feel? He felt like heard accompanied scene. He probably felt relieved. He probably felt like intrigued, you know. And on some level that's like when it, when I've been thinking a lot about like what is this thing that there's like this strong part of accompaniment. Like it's an accompaniment, you know, because it's not like. And this goes back to the Buddha nature thing. It's not like I know how to deal with a retreat center in small town Massachusetts. Like, how would I ever know that? I've never been there. Like, but I know enough around the edges, like in that circle, right, to go like, okay, like. And that's really what I was doing in the call. I was like provoking with questions like, how are you thinking about this? Are you thinking about that? Tell me more about that. How does occupy meant? Like, you know, all these things. That's one thing that's coming up for me. The other thing I think I forgot. Oh yeah. So. So at the beginning of like a year ago when I incorporated this business, I had like a lawyer that I knew from years ago in advocacy and he's now got his own private practice. So he incorporated my business. And then I said, oh, I have all these questions, like financial questions. He's like, oh, I'll hook you up with this accountant. And I went to the account's website and it's like a bit, it's like just so you know, it's like full tail capitalism. So like it was a bit like shocking in that way. But there was something about it that I was like, yes, I like this. It's like, I'll send it to you after. It's very dramatic and excuse the heavy capitalism, but everything about that website is exactly how I feel. When I get on a call with Ryan. I just feel like that dude, he don't want to hear about utopias or land based projects, but he knows how to fucking manage my money. And it. I don't know why, but that like, and I recommend them all the time because I'm just like, this guy knows your.

00:41:54

James Redenbaugh: Awesome. Yeah, that accuracy of their Town. I'd love to look at some precedents, actually, a bit later. Some. Some sites that you feel work well. But first, I want to stick with this spherical idea we're talking about around the. The, like, the. The land not being the retreat center. The retreat center isn't the land. It isn't the architecture that's surely part of it. And something else is going there. Just like your offering is not just your mind, it's not just your body, it's not just your analysis, it's not just what you can see on the land, but that is part of it. And I'm curious if you have any ideas already about what kind of images might communicate for you what. What we're talking about here, what kind of visual.

00:43:21

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, something came up for me when you're saying that. So my. I guess my second largest client.

00:43:34

James Redenbaugh: Might.

00:43:34

Peter Wrinch: Have told you the story last time, but. So they reached out to me and they were like, oh, hey, just very common. This is very common how something comes in my funnel. They're like, hey, we need a philanthropic strategy line. We don't feel like we're good at it. We. We've never had official fundraising. Can you help us? We heard you're good at that. So I, I, like, got a call with them. They're lovely people. I was like, yeah, no, this seems right. Like, I can work with you. And so I wrote them a strat. I was like, I'll build you a strategy. It will cost $25,000, and we'll go from there. And they got back to me and they were like, no, we don't like, yes, we want the strategy, but we actually, like, want way more. And I, I had to, like, I had to really decide that, yes, I wanted to work with them. That. And that's kind of. And I realized in that moment, I was kind of hedging. I was kind of going like, I'll throw them a strategy. I'll. I'll price it, like, really well for me and just see what happens. But what they came back with is like, no, we want accompaniment. And so I think, like, on this circle, like, or this fullness, it's like this product is so much bigger than the strategic document, you know, like, with this watershed contract that's just come up. The reason why they don't haven't signed the deal yet is because they want me to put deliverables in the contract. And I'm like, so I am writing deliverables in there, but I even said to Them, like, yes, we'll get these deliverables, and, yes, your board will feel good. But what this is really about is, like, what will explode out of this first meeting. And so all these deliverables might go away. But I'm with you. I'm with you. Like, and yes, we'll get to the philanthropic strategy, and we'll have an assessment of your margins and your pricing, and all these things that are very, like, again, over index on the cerebral, which, like, my elite school allows me to do, you know, and they check the box. Check the box, but it's like, that's not the product. And so when it comes to images, I think for me, it's hard for me to, like, really talk about images outside of that circle or outside of the things that, like, connect us, you know, but not in a tacky way. That's. That's also like, where I'm like, careful is, like, you know, I'm in a lot of conversations with a lot of, like, what I would consider unsophisticated marketers. And there's, like, a lot of talks about campfires and, like, you know, things like that. And I'm just. I'm kind of like, no, this is.

00:46:51

James Redenbaugh: A little more people holding hands around.

00:46:53

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And, like, no judgment. Like, we're all, like, on a journey. But, like, that's not for me, you know? And I think that for me, there's, like. I don't know, James, if I shared this with you, but when I went. I went to Watershed in July, and I took my daughter, and so went to New York City. She'd never. She grew up on an island. She's never been to a city like this. She's been tokyo, but not that one. Not like New York. So we're walking around. So anyways, went to this American Science Museum or something. Someone recommended it. And we watched a film in one of those, like, pl. Planetariums. And they talked about when stars are first born, they roll together and that, like, in a group. And then when they get to. Oh.

00:47:47

James Redenbaugh: I'm sure she'll come back.

00:47:48

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. When they get to an age of maturity, like our star, they separate. And I was like, damn. Like, that really hit me. Like, what does it mean to be in accompaniment and relationship?

00:48:17

James Redenbaugh: That's crazy.

00:48:18

Peter Wrinch: I know. It blew my mind, man. It, like, still blows my mind even saying it out loud.

00:48:23

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, I didn't know that.

00:48:24

Peter Wrinch: Neither did I.

00:48:31

James Redenbaugh: Hey, you're back.

00:48:33

Ellen S: Sorry about that.

00:48:34

James Redenbaugh: No problem. So, Peter, what about that image of Stars in their infancy being together, and then when they mature, they go out. What about that image?

00:48:48

Peter Wrinch: You know what's funny, man? Is in a lot of my presentations, like, whether they're pitch decks or. Or like speaking engagements, I'm using a lot, like. And again, like, I'm not sure this is right, but I'm using a lot of space shots like cosmic. And I know the edge. Right. Like, here's the edge again. Right. Like, it's like, I don't want to be like, I think I. I'm aware of an edge there of like just appearing like a flake. You know, I think like going back to what we started the conversation with, part of what's real. So one of the other names I thought about for Uncommon Partners was like something around the real in that same way that I spoke to those billionaires. Like, I spoke like I speak to other wealth holders. But in the end, I. I'm really glad the direction I went. So. But I'm like, I think that this grounding is really important. Like, even this call I had with this guy earlier, he was talking about coming through Occupy and like, you know, is clearly like a political person, but like, kind of struggling with that. Like, what does it mean to run a retreat center and have like political values or. You kept talking about it as political expression. And I think that's a struggle I have too is like, I never want to get in that place where it's like spiritual bypass. Like, everything's great, there's no ice raids. Like, you know what I mean? Like, how do you make sense of all of that? Like, I think that there's an edge in my world that's a. That can end up there a bit like. And again, Reiko would be a very good example of what's like, he's. He's like a really integrated, good example of not at that woo edge that's just like kind of without ground. So that'd be the only thing I like about the space stuff is like, sometimes I worry about that.

00:51:16

James Redenbaugh: Yeah.

00:51:19

Peter Wrinch: But I will say points of light are. Is a solid metaphor for me.

00:51:26

James Redenbaugh: Awesome.

00:51:29

Ellen S: Peter, can you articulate what. I know this isn't your brand, but I am just curious with Hollyhock, kind of what was the magic between you and that other creator that helped it feel so, like, aligned in a place that you weren't able to get to? Again, I'm just. What was successful about that partnership?

00:51:50

Peter Wrinch: No. Great question. So there were a couple things that I can think of, Ellen. So one is were both. I'll just say were both enneagram threes. And so we had, like, a really strong, like, driving energy towards. Towards being better. Like, being, like, served in that same vein that I was saying. My mentor said, like, weren't gonna allow it to be shit. So that was one thing. Second thing is we had both of us for reasons that are good and not good. We had a disdain or a healthy, sometimes unhealthy disdain for the way things have been. So were not. We were not, like. Like, I think in these retreat centers, there's a lot of deference often to what has been. And so any concept of, like, I'm gonna shift, I'm gonna change. This is not met with a lot of ease. We used to joke sometimes, her and I, that were both, like, slightly autistic because we, like, didn't understand why people cared that much about things. We'd just sort of be like, we're just doing this. Like, why are you. Why are you so emotional over there? Which is, I think, like, a bit of a challenge. In retreat center spaces, there's a lot, like. Because they open up a lot of space for a lot of feelings, which is a great thing. But that can also be a lot of, like, stuckness, because. Because they're relational. They're like, tell me. You know, everyone's opinion matters, and we can't move forward until we hear everyone. And I'm always trying to balance both that relational field and, like, move, move. And then I would just say that I think her name was Loretta, so I'm just going to call her Loretta. Loretta and I shared, like, a. Like a similar aesthetic. Like, we. We were. We shared a similar aesthetic.

00:54:33

Ellen S: Thank you. I'm excited to see that aesthetic, how that is expressing for you in other places, because that would be helpful.

00:54:47

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. Why don't we look at some precedents together? And I'd love to see how. How you respond to looking at some things.

00:54:59

Peter Wrinch: Cool.

00:55:00

James Redenbaugh: You want to start with this accountant website?

00:55:03

Peter Wrinch: It's a little embarrassing, but sure.

00:55:10

Ellen S: No, I think it sounds great. It totally did its job.

00:55:13

Peter Wrinch: Do you know it did its job. That's correct. Absolutely.

00:55:20

Ellen S: It connected you to the right person.

00:55:22

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. And honestly, I like. As I said, I've recommended him many times.

00:55:36

Ellen S: So not aesthetically. We're not referencing this, but we are referencing this. Perhaps just get started. Make sure I'm understanding from his messaging or how he's talking about himself or what. Yeah.

00:55:45

Peter Wrinch: I think you will see very quickly why, like, it's slightly Embarrassing for me to use it as an example. But again, like think about me as like someone who's just starting a business and has so many questions. Yeah. Not my study necessary. I'm going to start the animation over again. That's Vancouver. Yeah. It's like pretty heavy. Like full tilt capitalism. Hell, John Draper style. But like I was that him? I think the first guy was him. But they're like totally these dudes. Right. And like the truth was, is like I had so many questions because I was like doing all this cross border stuff and like I've never not been an employee. You know, like all of these questions and like these folks really have taken care of me in a really good way. And, and like it's hard to know whether they're more than just one or two guys, but the way I feel when I talk to them is like they've got a team. Yeah. So anyways, it just keeps going on and like this and you. But you can see west coast strong again. You know, I don't necessarily need west coast strong, but I will say a couple things about my aesthetic. Is I. The one thing that, there are a few things about that website that appeal to me outside of like the very strong message of like elite capitalism is like I am a clean lines person. Like, I do really like clean lines. I'm not, I don't like, I'm not very big into like cartoony things. You know, like I am very. I, I would say like fairly consistent across my life in any sort of design has been clean lines, limited palette. You know, I like, I'm aware of starkness but like whites, blacks, friends. I mean not to get too Soviet but like, you know, I, I often use a lot of. I have used to most to the irritant of some of my older friends. Like a lot of Soviet stuff in my, you know, designs.

00:58:28

Ellen S: What's interesting to me about that example, it makes me almost think of like the space, like showing space or these edges industry. Like that doesn't really look like an accountant's website.

00:58:39

Peter Wrinch: Totally.

00:58:40

Ellen S: So it's like it's gonna be memorable. It looks like a fashion site or something, you know, or like. And so that's, it's really interesting imagery that they've chosen.

00:58:50

Peter Wrinch: Ellen, that's such a good point. Like you just named something that I, I felt but I couldn't, I didn't have articulated. You're exactly right. Like when I went here because I know a lot of accountants, they are not this. They are stuffy, boring risk mitigators for the most part, and you need that. Like, you like. I love those people. I'm not one of them. So when I saw this, I was like. And what I would say about Ryan is he's very much a risk mitigator, but he's also, like, very strongly opinionated, which I appreciate. You know, he's like, don't put your money in RRSPs. Oh, my God, don't. Don't get me started about RRSPs. And I'm like, what. What are. You know, like, so. Yeah.

00:59:41

James Redenbaugh: Awesome. Peter, are there any other websites that you. That you really like that we should look at?

00:59:52

Peter Wrinch: Let me just think about that. Hold on just one sec. So you know what? I can definitely provide you with, like, a list of websites if I have more time to think about it. But the one that just did jump to mind, it's, again, like, it's a little outside of what, like, I might do, but while I was at Hollyhock, we always looked at Esalen's website, and we're like, this is what we would want. We never got there. But I would say in Retreat Center World, Esalen is probably. Probably delivers the best web experience. It's, you know, and they have big budgets, but it's, you know, and I would say coherent. Like, it's not an incredibly coherent site. And it's very clear to me that they're confused about their purpose, which I know to be true. But. But in terms of, like, a retreat center's website, I think this is pretty good.

01:01:08

Ellen S: I'm just kind of laughing because it's. People holding hands. Like, you guys are just.

01:01:10

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, totally. And. And photos of the land. Like, it's, you know, that this is why, to me, there's. They're confused about their purpose. Right. They, like, you know, it's. We're going to show you our best accommodation. Oh, by the way, this is $5,000 a night, you know, like. Yeah, but let me. Let me sort of poke around, James, and. And I'll show a few. I can come up with a list.

01:01:47

James Redenbaugh: Cool. I brought a few together here. One sec. Curious what these conjure in you. So, first of all, have you seen this website before?

01:02:14

Peter Wrinch: No.

01:02:17

James Redenbaugh: So these guys are a consultancy in Berlin. They do a lot of facilitation. They. They've added AI powered recently. I don't know what that means for them, but I. I love what were able to do with the video here because it's three different things of nature.

01:02:41

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:02:41

James Redenbaugh: But they're all, you know, it's not overwhelming. It's not full width, but you can really get it. And they're all in motion and they fit really well together. So it tells a story. So it's not like, you know, if it was just a shot of the land, you know, in the mountains, be like, what are we doing here?

01:02:59

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:03:00

James Redenbaugh: But these three things together is really nice. we also. I like the way we kind of break up space. So it's clean, minimal.

01:03:14

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:03:16

James Redenbaugh: You know, squares and rectangles, but there's a lot of spaciousness and some unexpected moments.

01:03:24

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. Yeah. You know what, James, I actually have looked at this website because I looked at your portfolio and I was like, yeah, this is. This is very cool.

01:03:32

James Redenbaugh: Cool. Cool.

01:03:33

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, this. I would say this generally resonates with me. A couple things I would say is. And this is. I. I like know this is in conflict with what I just said. I'm super aware of that. So it like, feels a little like, sparse to me, but at the same time it's like, it really is. It also really speaks to me.

01:04:01

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, I hear that. Cool. Here's another one that's not in our portfolio yet. I don't think this is mainly just a one pager, but really simple. And I like this because it's. The guys behind this company are really, you know, conscious cool. But they're doing like giant capital structuring and billion dollar deals and stuff.

01:04:29

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:04:31

James Redenbaugh: So we kind of weave in some neat. That's very geometries and effects and do, you know, a bit of the unexpected.

01:04:40

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:04:40

James Redenbaugh: But it's still a very clean professional site. Things line up and then there's little moments like the, you know, the border here are these waves moving along in the. Instead of a simple square contact form, I have it kind of weaving together.

01:04:57

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. Yeah. This is a beautiful sight.

01:05:01

James Redenbaugh: Thank you.

01:05:03

Peter Wrinch: I find that, like, transition from the white to the blue background very cool. Like, I. I don't think I've seen too much about that. That's. So you're.

01:05:11

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. I love that because it. It creates a distinct section without having that hard line.

01:05:17

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:05:18

James Redenbaugh: In between sections.

01:05:20

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:05:24

James Redenbaugh: And then you probably saw this one in our portfolio as well.

01:05:27

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:05:30

James Redenbaugh: This is one of my favorite personal brand websites.

01:05:35

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:05:36

James Redenbaugh: And the images here, you know, again, a lot of nature images.

01:05:41

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:05:41

James Redenbaugh: But we're trying to use them in a way where it's more about conveying a mood than.

01:05:47

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:05:47

James Redenbaugh: Drawing too much attention to the specific image itself.

01:05:51

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. Wow.

01:05:54

James Redenbaugh: And then like so much can be Done with pattern. I don't know why this isn't moving right now. This is supposed to move, but yeah, pattern and. And shapes can really go a long way.

01:06:10

Ellen S: When you're using nature. But not in the way that you typically see.

01:06:13

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, exactly. Not in the, like, handhold, fire pit.

01:06:18

Ellen S: Those are beautiful images.

01:06:22

James Redenbaugh: And so I just started bringing together some points of inspiration for images. I feel like a less is more is always a good philosophy to hold in mind. Yeah, but the. The right geometries and the right patterns can really go a long way to. To tell that story, you know, especially paired with the right images in the right way. So, yeah, I don't think we want to land and have like a big picture of you in nature or, you know, retreats, you know, montage of retreat centers from above.

01:07:09

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:07:10

James Redenbaugh: But it could be neat to weave images and pattern in the right way that starts to tell the story.

01:07:22

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:07:24

James Redenbaugh: Oh, that's interesting. And so I'm curious if. If any of these images or patterns conjure anything for you.

01:07:36

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, Yeah.

01:07:42

James Redenbaugh: I think.

01:07:46

Peter Wrinch: Go back. Yeah, one page there. So I think these are all generally in the right direction, is what I would say. They all, like. None of them are really, like, hitting me like that's the one, so to speak, but they're all sort of in the right direction. I think when I said, like, when I. That first website, I said sparse, what I. What I actually mean is white backgrounds. I think that I'm like, not. And. And all that to say is. I know I said, like, I'm pretty simple palette, like, you know, whites, darks, reds. But I think that I'm also like. I think, yeah, like, exactly like this, you know, I think that, like, one of the textures I know that I'm like, really delivering for folks when I'm at my best is like a warmth of accompaniment, you know, And. And I think that. So that's why the white, for me, it can feel a bit clinical. It can feel like, not warm. Also, there's one image in there that sort of reminded me, and I'm just gonna grab something. I'm gonna turn on myself view for a second so I can see what I'm showing you. But right on my wall here is this, like.

01:09:20

James Redenbaugh: Are you.

01:09:21

Peter Wrinch: Do you both know, like, the artist Taeko? So I have like, this on my wall. It's like. I'm not saying this is right, but I saw an. I saw an image there that kind of looked like that. And so I think, like, part of what, like, I would want to do with color is to. To feel nuance. Like, to feel. Yeah. Like, texture, basically, for folks to feel wrapped. But I think to Ellen's point, when we're looking at different things, it's like. That's the challenge of, like, retreat centers. Right. Is they'll. They'll just, like, use nature exactly as it. As it is in an attempt to be. An attempt to be. This is interesting here. Let's just look at this for a sec. So I just. I hadn't looked at Hollyhock's website in a long time. I sort of, like, try to stay away. But this is actually interesting, what they've done up here.

01:10:41

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, I like that.

01:10:43

Peter Wrinch: So this is. This is probably a drone shot of the ocean right in front of Hollyhock, but it creates so much texture. This is. Tends to be what, like, retreat centers do, but they have a new person doing this. And. And I can already see that she. Her eye is different. She's capturing different things. Like, this room shot is actually interesting to me. These other three are pretty typical. But even the. The focus of the flowers, as opposed to the hot tub, it's showing you that, like, there's an art. Like, for me, she's looking at art and beauty as opposed to a shot of the hall of the hot tub, which, like, everyone will want to go in. Yeah. But this actually is quite interesting to me.

01:11:45

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. Yeah. The texture and the circle is obviously really important to you. I really like how the Taiko album splits the circle and creates these different spaces. Yeah, I could totally play with that.

01:12:06

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:12:06

James Redenbaugh: And I feel like just doing a bit. I mean, I'm generally attracted to these kind of patterns, but I was feeling for this project something like this, where there's obviously a pattern, but it's not a simple, like, symmetrical isometry.

01:12:35

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:12:37

James Redenbaugh: Or Islamic pattern. It's like there's a. An aliveness and a naturalness to it.

01:12:53

Ellen S: I don't know if there's anything like. Sorry again about the Internet. I'm. I'm using my phone as a hot spot at the co. Working space. That just doesn't feel right. I thought that it was. I. I was transferred to my phone, but there's something about, like. Yeah, it's finding, like, the right metaphor, the right story, and then we can kind of run with it. And it. Some. What's interesting about those images you were just showing James was, you know, I don't know if there's like a. A hive or a community or a networking or, you know, some kind of connecting disparate. Ideas. Like, we can. We can create stories around imagery. Right. But that also, I think, makes it nice for clients because then they kind of, like, for you, Peter, could feel a connection to it. You know, you're. You're understanding why we're representing you, and that. That way that there's a story.

01:13:39

Peter Wrinch: So, yeah, you know, I. I would, like, I would definitely have to. I think that's, like, part of my journey right now is everything must. Because, like, a lot of what I'm often talking to folks about is coherence. And so if it isn't coherent, like, I kind of am seeing that as like, such a. Such a. Yeah. Such a powerful place to be when you can find coherence. I had an idea. I'll send you both, like, some of the, like, decks I've been using so you can kind of, like, see, I've been using a service called Beautiful AI to build presentations. And so it's, like, limited to their, you know, their assets. But I'll send them to you so you can see, like, how I'm kind of like. You can see what fonts I'm using. What, like, images are kind of working for me. What.

01:14:33

James Redenbaugh: You know, awesome. Yeah. Great. Also, any other points of inspiration, a flower you like?

01:14:44

Peter Wrinch: Yep.

01:14:46

James Redenbaugh: You know, other artworks and artists.

01:14:49

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:14:49

James Redenbaugh: And there's more questions about those things, too, in the. In the questionnaire.

01:14:56

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:14:56

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. And at this point in the process, you know, I want to be just, like, open to all streams and possibilities, and then we'll will sift and start to see what's gonna. What's gonna make the most sense. And then we definitely want to arrive at a place where we have a visual language that we feel like we can use to tell your story and create. Create meaning on the site. And ideally, every little element is there for a reason and serves a purpose.

01:15:33

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:15:34

James Redenbaugh: And if it doesn't, we won't take it off.

01:15:36

Peter Wrinch: Okay. One thing that's kind of coming up for me as were talking, just something I remember is when I was going through, like, probably at, like, the. I don't think we ever did it, but, like, at the. We went through a process at Hollyhock about reworking the website. It was right before COVID and then, like, Covet kind of happened. It all just, like, fell apart. But one of the things that I. I'm, like, quite. It's funny, I'll just say that, like, I. I've had, like, a lot of indigenous teachers, and, like, one of my teachers, she. She was like, really challenged me that I'm not from here. So I like. But I really identify as being from here. So that it's like this constant tension that I'm in. But so let's just say like outside of the indigeneity of it all, I'm from here. And so like if you're from here, there are three colors that are always present. Green, blue, and brown. It's like cedar wood. So brown cedar and fir trees that you can see behind me. And then the sky and the ocean. So those are like. When I, when were talking about like a strong palette for hollyhock that I really felt aligned with, it was that palette. It was like the earthen colors of this place. And I think that as a palette does work for me as well. Like it's outside of the, like what the white, black and red. But I think that those colors are like what I grew up. Like they are of me. Even though like I. Bloodline and ancestors. I'm not from this place.

01:17:31

James Redenbaugh: Beautiful. Do you think you can share some. Some images and maybe they're in your definite presentations around the particular hues?

01:17:43

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, definitely.

01:17:44

James Redenbaugh: The.

01:17:44

Peter Wrinch: The one that's like really the most interesting one to me is the sun baked cedar. So I will try to find it. But there's like, there's maybe some. On my house we have some cedar that's five years old in the sun. But yeah, I'll. I'll send some photos. Great.

01:18:18

James Redenbaugh: Ellen, I'm wondering if there's anything from these brand personality.

01:18:26

Ellen S: Yeah.

01:18:27

James Redenbaugh: Exercises.

01:18:28

Ellen S: Yeah, some words have like naturally come up in. In the station for sure. That could influence. Yeah. The expression. Do you want me to share that? I know we have. Do we have about 10 minutes, is that right?

01:18:44

James Redenbaugh: We have between 10 and 40. So I scheduled two hours and we can. If you guys. I. I have the time available. As much time as you want to take, Peter, but. Yeah. Ellen, why don't you take us into there?

01:19:02

Ellen S: Yeah, let me link here. See?

01:19:15

Peter Wrinch: Oops.

01:19:21

Ellen S: All right, try that. See if it will let you in.

01:19:35

James Redenbaugh: I'm in here. Are you in there, Peter?

01:19:37

Ellen S: Yeah, yeah. So really, I think this brand personality exercise is most relevant for the conversation we're having right now. And it's. I mean it's pretty self explanatory when you move through it, but it's. It's just these are really can help both the visual and how you're speaking to your audience. And so maybe I'll just ask you to spend some time right now with seeing what comes. Emerges for you. And then we can have a little discussion about it.

01:20:13

Peter Wrinch: Sorry, Just sitting on my screen.

01:20:21

Ellen S: And, you know, of course. Happy to be in dialogue with you, too, about it, if that would help.

01:20:25

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, totally. So I can. So the first one is I love. And so I think, like, what I would say is, like, the first thing that kind of comes to mind is, like, an excitement. Like, oh, this is different. This is. This is not what I expected. And sometimes that excitement can be a little. There could be fear, like, oh, I'm a little scared, or like, I'm a little provoked, maybe is the better word. But on the other side of that, I also want them to feel, like, held. You know, it's not provocation out on the limb, you know, It's. It's like, okay, like, this person's asking me some. Like, some kind of direct questions or they're engaging me in a direct way, but I don't feel like. I don't feel like they're insane, first of all. And I don't feel like I'm by myself.

01:21:34

Ellen S: Well, when people are engaging with you to be provoked, really? Right. Like those billionaires, when you're like, what the fuck do you do? Like that. That's. That's also the uncommon in you.

01:21:43

Peter Wrinch: Exactly. So I think for me, it's, like, important that they feel held and provoked.

01:21:52

Ellen S: Cool. All right. Yeah, that. All right. What's this one bringing up for you?

01:22:05

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, this is an interesting one because I have, like, clients. I. I can notice the tone of my voice. Like, when I'm engaged. But sometimes, like. Like, if I have, like, a call where I'm, like, not that engaged, I can hear the tone of my voice is, like, not great. So I think I want my tone of voice to be, like, it's not excited, but, like, engaged, you know? I was gonna say sharp, but it's not. Like, I don't mean sharp and, like. Like, a mean way. I just mean, like, I'm, like, alert. I'm, like, in it. And then I think on the other side of this, like, it's also, like, soft and patient, you know? Like, I'm not. You know, I use fathom for my note taker, and it will tell me when I'm doing monologues. I'm like, I don't want to be, like, doing monologues.

01:23:24

Ellen S: Yes. Yeah. Okay. I love that. Thank you.

01:23:34

Peter Wrinch: Mm. My ideal client sees something for my brand. They think it is important.

01:23:46

Ellen S: Is it. Sorry, a different client's word.

01:23:49

Peter Wrinch: Okay. Okay. Yeah. Got it.

01:23:51

Ellen S: Got it.

01:23:52

Peter Wrinch: That I was like, I'm confused by the important.

01:23:54

James Redenbaugh: It has to be important.

01:23:57

Peter Wrinch: Must be. They think it's uncommon. Like, it's not what they've heard before. It's. I. I think I would use the word here, too, is like, provoking. Like, it's. It's a bit so weird. Like, I'm really. I'm realizing this as we're talking. There's like this. This tension, though, because, like, it also needs to feel like us. Like, they. They need to feel held in it. Like, it. So I. The word I was using was, like, safe. But that, like, that's not really it. I'm just thinking about a client I have right now who I can tell when we talk, she feels driven forward by our conversations in a way that maybe if she's talking in her board meeting, she's not. You know, she's like, in.

01:25:06

James Redenbaugh: Yeah.

01:25:07

Peter Wrinch: They need to feel like. It's like, almost like they need to feel empowered.

01:25:17

Ellen S: Yeah. This is like. They think it is even, like, the right word.

01:25:19

Peter Wrinch: Right.

01:25:19

Ellen S: This is also a feeling question.

01:25:21

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. Empowering.

01:25:27

Ellen S: And there's something. I don't know. We have hell. Oh, yeah. There's held. Yeah. Like seen. Seen and held.

01:25:32

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, totally. Seen is a. Is a. Is a good word too. Like, they. Like they feel seen in. In their reality. So interesting. I'm so much. It's so much easier for me to answer the next question. Like, I don't want people to feel bored, typical, like, average, usual, like, all of those types of things. But also, like, I think my edge is like, I don't want them to feel, like, sold to.

01:26:32

Ellen S: Yeah.

01:26:35

Peter Wrinch: They.

01:26:35

Ellen S: You. You want them to feel related to.

01:26:37

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, exactly.

01:26:40

Ellen S: Okay.

01:26:41

Peter Wrinch: My brand was a person. I think they would be described as real. And I want to say thoughtful in here, too. Thoughtful. And then I need something that's like a little bit more like, almost like fun. I don't know if anyone ever describes me as fun, so it's, like, hard to put that in there. But maybe I think it's fun.

01:27:41

Ellen S: Yeah.

01:27:42

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. Maybe I am from time to time.

01:27:45

Ellen S: It's a. Fun. Yeah. And there's something like there's an edge or a depth to the work too.

01:27:51

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Depth is. Is there too. Like, I think that's. Yeah, I sort of like. Yeah. Yeah, maybe that's.

01:28:04

Ellen S: Okay. Do you think. Any thoughts on this, James, or. Or places we might. Yeah. Things I might be missing in these questions.

01:28:22

James Redenbaugh: One I always like to ask. It's in the. The brand questionnaire that if your brand was a Space, an architectural space. What. What would it be like?

01:28:35

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, I, I, I saw that question. So I think that this is a good question for me, is it's like, I think it would be okay for first and for sure it would be a clean space. Like, it's clean. And again, this has come down to the lines. Like, it's got a lot of, like, tight lines. There's sort of, like, I think I said, like, my wife's from Japan. I've spent a lot of time in Japan, so there's like, almost like a Japanese aesthetic to what my space would look like. But there would be, like, interesting books, you know, like, splashes of color, and there'd be things of depth, like whether they're, like, things I've collected over the years, but not cluttered, of course. You know, and a lot of the things, like, almost all of them would have a story, you know, like, there's, it's not that there's nothing in there that's random, but there's a few. There's way more things with story than there is random.

01:30:04

James Redenbaugh: Woods, I imagine.

01:30:07

Peter Wrinch: Woods. Yeah, a lot of woods. A lot of wood, for sure. Windows, bright. Like, if I, like, think about the main room of our little house over here, it's got, like, Soviet art, indigenous. Like a photo of me with indigenous leaders. Surfing photo, a lot of wood. Homemade furniture, collection of books from my wife and I from 25 years. You know, it's clean. Like, clean line, couch.

01:30:47

James Redenbaugh: Awesome.

01:30:48

Ellen S: I added the word craft. Does that feel like there's a craft? Yeah, like a. When you said furniture or that there's the only thing.

01:30:58

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. The only thing I would say to that is like, yeah, no, that works. That works.

01:31:03

Ellen S: Not like arts and crafty.

01:31:05

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, yeah, totally.

01:31:06

Ellen S: Yeah. Yeah. I just think of Japanese architectures, so it's such a craft.

01:31:14

Peter Wrinch: Totally.

01:31:15

Ellen S: Three things.

01:31:16

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:31:17

Ellen S: Yeah.

01:31:21

James Redenbaugh: Awesome. And Peter, feel free to share images of those spaces in the Google Drive. Wonderful. Well, I feel like we're tuning into a sense of things, but the look and the patterns underneath. For me, there's something that's standing out around the space between connectedness, connection, people, nature, time and space. Kind of all things. Like one of the. I mean, I love images of nature, but a picture. And I take a million photographs all the time, but it's just, it's not capturing the thing.

01:32:30

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:32:30

James Redenbaugh: You know, it's a slice. You know, it's freezing it. It's taking it and putting it in the freezer or stuffing the giraffe and putting it in Your living room. Like that's not a giraffe. Yeah, the giraffe is the whole thing from birth through death and at social relationships. And that's what I want to try to point to on the website. The whole thing seen and unseen.

01:32:59

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:33:00

James Redenbaugh: And we can do that with space, texture, the right images, the right words, and letting them come together in a poetic way.

01:33:18

Ellen S: Seen an unseen is pretty good because there's. Now you're talking about this bridge between cerebral and, you know, that cannot be named. I'm interested in that scene and unseen concept.

01:33:33

James Redenbaugh: And you mentioned. Yeah, sorry, what Peter?

01:33:37

Peter Wrinch: I was going to say like just something on that point and then it's like. So I was introduced to the Enneagram five years ago by my coach. That was like one of the things he brought that I was like, oh my God, that's so amazing. I guess I will read Deepak Chopra. And like one of the ways the Enneagram looks at the world, right, is that there's like head, heart and body. And I think that like our society, like our dominant society is so over indexed to head. And like I can speak to myself like, you know, you go like all, you know, undergrad is. I mean that's what it is, right? Like you're learning. Like I see it with my kids in high school. It's like you're really over indexed to cerebral. And so how do we incorporate those other pieces of like heart and body? I'm actually okay at heart. I'm terrible at body. Like, and that when I say somatic, it's like, that's actually what I feel like Hollyhock and in some ways Covet did for me is just like I'm like, oh, how do I feel in my body? Like in this conversation, you know, in these spaces. And I think that like one of the things that was popping for me as were talking is like. And I've been thinking about with website is like, you know, I have, let's say five clients right now. And so they're all like in. You know, I have a principal that I'm talking to and I think that like it's like I want to find a way to bring some of their words into website. Whether, you know, like it's testimonials, I'm not sure. Like it doesn't have to be tacky but like I know that like those people will talk differently about me than I talk about myself. Like they just have a really different appreciation of what I'm delivering for them. And I think in the relational world, that is my target market, those things matter because that. That target market, like, as I was once and never want to be sold to, you know, most of them are pretty. Like, that's a pretty repelling to them.

01:35:58

Ellen S: Yeah, well, in business, the. The testimonials, or how people are talking about you is. Is, you know, you have like, word of mouth, like, direct referral, and then the testimonials are like the social proof.

01:36:10

Peter Wrinch: Exactly.

01:36:11

Ellen S: It is interesting. And how. I mean, I have that too, where people have written things, and I'm like, oh, that's like, yeah, really beautiful. Like, and.

01:36:20

James Redenbaugh: And.

01:36:20

Ellen S: And I can't. I can't say that about myself. But you've experienced this thing, this process. Yeah. And. And do you have, like, I know you have the five clients or. Or have people written those, or is there anything we can read so far?

01:36:35

Peter Wrinch: No. Like, I. I could very much ask them to, though. Like, you know, I get asked to do that from time to time. And so, like, it'd be very easy for me to go and say, hey, I'm like, actually working on my website. Would you. Would you be. Would you offer a testimonial? And I feel like the answer will most likely be yes and could get them pretty quick, I think.

01:37:00

James Redenbaugh: Cool.

01:37:01

Peter Wrinch: Should I do that? What is.

01:37:03

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, definitely. What is your enneagram? Type me three.

01:37:14

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. Do y' all know what enneagram you are?

01:37:19

Ellen S: I might know. I mean, I think I've done it before, but I don't remember it.

01:37:24

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, I'm a nine.

01:37:26

Peter Wrinch: You're a nine. That makes sense to me just from, you know, it's not like we know each other well, but from my encounters with you, for sure, I think the easiest. The frame I always use that my coach helped me with is like, what's your. Where do you go to? Underlying fear, shame, or. Or anger. What's the. Like. If you could, like, be really clear about what is your, like, snap. And it's funny because before I knew the enneagram, I would be like, no, I got no shame at all. I'm. No, I'm shameless. And then all of a sudden, I. The enneagram, I was like, oh, my God. Everything is shame. I'm shame. I'm a shame machine all the time. All the time. Everything is shame. So nine is anger. What about you, Ellen?

01:38:24

Ellen S: Where do you go? Like, I'm not quite sure of the question.

01:38:27

Peter Wrinch: Like, you're married, right?

01:38:30

Ellen S: Separated.

01:38:31

Peter Wrinch: Separated. So when you were with your husband if he pissed you off, were you angry, shameful, or what? Did I say the other one? Fear.

01:38:40

Ellen S: Oh, it's definitely anger.

01:38:43

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, yeah.

01:38:45

Ellen S: Just I'm very fiery.

01:38:47

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. So then you're probably in the body type, which is like, at the top. It's 1. 9 8.

01:38:54

Ellen S: I'll report back.

01:38:55

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, more back.

01:39:01

Ellen S: But I mean, I touch all of. I touch all of those.

01:39:03

Peter Wrinch: So we all. Yeah, we. I mean, that's the thing about Enneagram, and I'm super into this is like, it's not a pigeonholer thing, but because.

01:39:10

James Redenbaugh: We have them all.

01:39:11

Peter Wrinch: Right. And.

01:39:12

Ellen S: Yeah.

01:39:12

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. And isn't the idea to kind of like, transcend and include all the points?

01:39:18

Ellen S: Correct.

01:39:19

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:39:19

James Redenbaugh: Become the whole.

01:39:20

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:39:21

James Redenbaugh: Spectrum.

01:39:21

Peter Wrinch: I think the best thing it is used for is like an awareness tool of, like, patterns more than, like, a personality. Right. So, like, I know as an Enneagram through is like more identified as an enneagram 3 is that when something doesn't go well for me, I kind of check out. And that was such an awareness for me. I was like, oh, right. I'm doing that in my marriage. I'm doing that in my life. Like, I'm doing that at work. If someone gives me bad news, I'm like, whatever, you're dead to me.

01:39:52

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, Cool. Well, great. We've got a lot of awesome stuff to. To play with and work with here. You can continue with the. With the form. I'll share a recap of our meeting, and we should set a time next week to. To drop in again.

01:40:18

Peter Wrinch: Yep.

01:40:23

James Redenbaugh: This same time would work well for me. Yeah. I'm sure you guys are more constricted than me.

01:40:31

Peter Wrinch: The same time works for me.

01:40:34

James Redenbaugh: Does that work for you, Ellen?

01:40:36

Ellen S: Yep, it works Great.

01:40:40

James Redenbaugh: I'll just duplicate this then. And in. In between, we'll see what we need to prepare and. And play with. But generally, in the next meeting, we want to be looking at more stuff together, starting to develop a visual language. You know, when we're talking about greens, blues, and browns, we can actually be looking at them and doing some fine tuning and start to see what. What wants to come together there.

01:41:16

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. Yeah. And I. I can. I'll send you a few things in the next few days.

01:41:22

James Redenbaugh: Awesome.

01:41:23

Peter Wrinch: All right.

01:41:26

James Redenbaugh: Great. Well, thank you both.

01:41:28

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

01:41:29

James Redenbaugh: I'm gonna run to Home Depot and see you guys soon.

01:41:34

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. Great to see you both. Thank you. Bye. Bye.

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