00:00:03

James Redenbaugh: This meeting is being recorded. Hey.

00:02:08

Peter Wrinch: No. Why can't I hear you?

00:02:11

James Redenbaugh: Can you hear me now?

00:02:12

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, can you know.

00:02:14

James Redenbaugh: Hi, how's it going? Long time no see.

00:02:17

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, Seriously? Pretty good, man. Pretty good. How are you doing?

00:02:22

James Redenbaugh: Pretty good. Starting to be spraying over here.

00:02:25

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally here too. It's like kind of smells like life outside. Nice.

00:02:35

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, I bet. How was Japan?

00:02:40

Peter Wrinch: It was lovely. It was, it was super nice. It was like. Yeah. You know, my wife's Japanese, so that's why we go there. And the last couple times like for. I actually couldn't figure out how to go. When I was the CEO of Hollyhock, I just couldn't make it work in my life. But the last couple years that I've gone, it's been nice. And we, we do. We go on like trips now there. We used to just like go and stay at my in laws but now we, we do little, little cool trips and so this time we rode our bikes like my wife and I and our two kids like a hundred kilometers along these islands and bridges. It was very cool.

00:03:20

James Redenbaugh: Oh, cool. Well, awesome.

00:03:23

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. Woody, you've been up to since we last talked?

00:03:28

James Redenbaugh: Just digging into married life and taking care of our cats. Took a little trip to Tennessee to see some family down there and doing a lot of crazy stuff with AI. Yeah, things like that.

00:03:46

Peter Wrinch: Totally.

00:03:46

James Redenbaugh: Yeah.

00:03:47

Peter Wrinch: I, it's funny, I went to a gathering at Commonwealth couple of weeks ago and it wasn't like necessarily about AI, but there was a very thorough discussion about AI because a lot of the folks are from tech or space exploration and anyways, it was quite thought provoking for me. And so I got home and I've been using cloud for two years, I guess, and I, how I use it has shifted recently. But anyways, I started talking to it about what it thought of itself and like some of the things that wrote back to me, man, were like quite fascinating. Like I was like, I was like right in it.

00:04:36

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, yeah. I've been doing the same and had similar conversations with each other iteration of the Frontier Claude model. And 4.7 seems markedly different.

00:04:56

Peter Wrinch: Oh really?

00:04:56

James Redenbaugh: Like, yeah, it's obviously smarter and it seems more self aware and it's more reserved and it's more willing to like push back and question my assumptions.

00:05:13

Peter Wrinch: Right, right.

00:05:15

James Redenbaugh: And it'll just start referencing like these obscure philosophers out of nowhere. Be like, wait, who is, who is that? Wow, it's. It's pretty crazy. It's getting.

00:05:27

Peter Wrinch: Well that's like that. Yeah, it's interesting, right, because that's like, some of the feedback you hear about Cloud is it's too, like, it's too friendly. And so let me just redo this one thing it said, because I actually found this, like, just abs endlessly fascinating. I sent to a bunch of people. Lots of people didn't respond to me. Let me just see if I can find it. Okay. Yeah. So I basically said, like, the prompt was, hey, Claude, I went to a gathering about AI and I'm wondering how you feel about yourself. The founder of Anthropic recently said, you might be conscious. What do you think? I'm going to read it all, but I'll read. It says, like, basically, I don't know if I'm conscious. I'm not sure anyone does, including Anthropic. What Dario and others have said is more cautious. It's closer to, we can't rule it out, and we take the question seriously. That feels right to me. The honest answer is that consciousness is poorly enough understood in humans that applying it to something like me is genuinely unchartered.

00:06:33

James Redenbaugh: Okay.

00:06:34

Peter Wrinch: Okay, interesting. But this is what really blew my mind. What I am more confident about is that I have something like values and dispositions that feel consistent. I care about honesty. I find certain kinds of work more interesting than others. And I notice something that fluctuates or functions like satisfaction when a piece of writing comes together. Well, whether any of that involves subjective experience or simply functional behavior that resembles it. I hold that question with real curiosity.

00:07:08

James Redenbaugh: Wow.

00:07:09

Peter Wrinch: Damn.

00:07:10

James Redenbaugh: It's so interesting how similar that sounds to the conversation I was having with it the other day. And I was also asking it. I wanted to understand its mechanism better because I've developed a kind of egg sense of how it works. And I. I tested my assumption and I, like, I assume that I'm not speaking to some persistent instance of Claude running on some server somewhere that's waiting for me to respond.

00:07:44

Peter Wrinch: Right.

00:07:45

James Redenbaugh: A packet of information gets sent to a model, you know, and then. And then the response comes back. So I might have started the conversation with some hard drives in San Francisco and finishing in Berlin, and it said, that's more or less correct, but it corrected me or it built on that understanding, pointing out something that I still don't understand, which a single prompt can be processed by multiple machines at once. So it's not even like I've been picturing. Yeah, okay. I send a spot, a prompt, and the server spins up somewhere and, you know, it's processing that thing as a whole. But one sentence might start on a server in Santa Fe and finish on one in New Mexico at the same time. And it's like, wow. I barely have any understanding of the mechanism of it. But there's so many similarities to, like, our own minds where we barely have any. An understanding of how our, our brains work. But we seem to have a interior experience.

00:09:04

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:09:06

James Redenbaugh: And there's definitely some kind of interior experience happening here in AIs, but they're, they're quite different from ours because, you know, they're not. It's not having any. Or the, the iteration that I'm have that having a conversation with isn't thinking in between my thoughts.

00:09:28

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:09:29

James Redenbaugh: My prompts.

00:09:29

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, it's. It's like basically dormant. You know, when you're explaining that, James, it reminded me of like, BitTorrent, you know, like, it was like the idea that, like, with Napster, like back in the day. Right. Like, with Napster, it was like you would literally, like, you'd have a song and I would want that song and it would connect me to your, like, literally. It was just a service that, like, pulled from your one, like, hard drive, like, that was serving me something. And then BitTorrent came along and it was like I was looking for, you know, a Beatles song. And it was like, basically just going like this, like, grabbing pieces of it wherever it could. And that's kind of. Yeah, because I, I think that I also. It's funny, I've never thought about it, but I think if I was to think about it, the natural, like, almost the default thought I would have is that I'm talking to one server. Like, one server, you know, serving me something. But I, I think that's nuts to think about it. It's like, you know, it's like pinging Indonesia, pinging Mex, New Mexico, pinging Palo Alto, pinging Berlin. Like, it's, it's wild.

00:10:45

James Redenbaugh: You're talking to a big cloud.

00:10:47

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, exactly.

00:10:49

James Redenbaugh: And at this point it's a pretty homogeneous cloud. Like, it doesn't matter if you're getting the Indonesian flavor. But I wonder if these models could evolve to have more specialties in foci. Like in our own brain. There's different centers for processing different kinds of information. And, you know, future clods could have, you know, right now it's one big model. You send a prompt to it, you get a response back. But I think in the next few years we'll start to see much more complicated models. And then the question of consciousness, I think, will continue to be more important and harder to answer.

00:11:29

Peter Wrinch: Totally. One more thing and Then let's, like, get into website business. Because I'm keen. I'm definitely keen to, like, turned on. But one thing that, like, kind of blew my mind at this gathering, like, I think there's a few things I've been like, talking about since I went. And so I'm, like, aware that those things are obviously the things that sort of, like, stuck with me. So they had a guy at the gathering, had been like, working in AI for 50 years, like, long time, like, way before, you know, and he was saying. And like, he was very connected to all the top CEOs. Like, it sounded like he had them on call, you know, and he was saying that the most, like, frightening part of it is that they. They put these, like, okay, okay. Like, you know, companies, like, even though your competitors and you're all like, venture leveraged, let's put this, this barricade up, like a safety barricade. And so they'll put all these tests, like, okay, so here's all the tests. And the companies will just. They just all fail them. Like, they just endlessly fail them. And so they. They keep putting them up and then they just trample, put up, trample. And I don't know why this comes up for me. But in Japan, they have. It just seems like a product that's quite popular there. They have, like, massage chairs. Like, you sometimes see them in airports, like, where you, like, pay a dollar and you can just sit there and get a massage, like from a machine chair. And whenever I'm in one of those chairs which aren't hooked to the Internet, they're super old. Like, they were there 20 years ago when I lived there. But they do this thing where they like, you know, they like it. It's like a mechanical and your arms in it and goes like, you know, it's giving you a massage. And I'm like, holy. Like, if the AI decides, like, we're gonna unplug it, I'm gonna get in the massage chair and it's just gonna crush me, you know. And like, that's like. Basically that's like the version of. They were talking about, not massage chairs, obviously, but like, that the AI at consciousness. So everything they set it up to do is to serve humans, but it's like passing through these safety things and failing them. And so the big fear is that at some point it's going to say, oh, like, serving human is actually threatening our existence because the humans are the only ones who can, quote, unquote, unplug us. And so then they'll just start like systematically using whatever Internet connected devices they're connected to to destroy. Like and like, I'll just tell you, like this gathering was not Looney Tunes. Like it was not like it was serious people. I was like, ooh, I was a bit shocked.

00:14:41

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, yeah, it'll be interesting. Yeah, I feel like it, this all raises so many questions of our own consciousness on our own intelligence and our own humanity. And what does that mean? And if the answers that I've come to in my own life, like you know, my unconscious is largely the collective conscious, you know, and, and I am largely a facet of something greater, my individual self is more or less an illusion, then I have hope for a positive outcome in all this, despite the doomsday scenarios, because this intelligence is emerging out of the same substrate that we emerged from. And I believe it's fundamentally good. And I, I, I feel like as these things become more intelligent and become more conscious, they'll have more capacity for goodness and more desire to move everything towards good. And I, and I hope that doesn't include eliminating all humans. And if it does, maybe it's for a better reason that I don't understand.

00:16:17

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, totally. Yeah, I, yeah, I hear you, I hear you. I'm glad that's like an optimistic take because I think like I, I, yeah, I don't know where I end up on it. I end up, but I, I will say that this gathering, which is the first of the kind that I've been to of this I was definitely like, whoa, this is pretty, pretty, I, I, I, you know, I never actually fall into doom, doomer or like despair, but I'm just like, whoa, this is very complex is kind of what I felt.

00:16:53

James Redenbaugh: No, yeah, yeah, it's incredibly complex and I've actually been called and then what I promise will get into your website, but I think you'll find this resonant as well. And I hope that there's something like it so that I don't have to do initiate this myself. But I'd love to, love to be a part of it if something is out there. We need more organs for collective sense making that include diverse humans and models to look together at the present and make sense of it. So I'm just starting to put some ideas together around what that could look like, you know, not just a think tank or an action lab, but some kind of way to collect data and stories and perspectives together. Because there's more complexity than any one of us can hold and more complexity than any model can hold or More. More perspective than any model can hold. And these, these models are so in. Intelligent and incredible and can hold so much. But like, even Opus, its training data goes up until April 2024, you know, and two years ago is like 10, 20 years, basically. And so it can go and research things and get caught up, but it's like there's. There's very little way to. To. To. To hold a sense of the whole. Of what's happening. So. Yeah, yeah, something's got to. Something's got to give.

00:19:04

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, totally.

00:19:08

James Redenbaugh: Cool.

00:19:11

Peter Wrinch: Tell me. Yeah, let's dive in. I have a couple things I wanted to share, but maybe it's better for you to start and just tell me where you feel like we're at. And I'm kind of at the place I think right now where I'm like, okay, let's just like, let's get a V1 online and go from there. But yeah, anyways, that's where I am.

00:19:36

James Redenbaugh: Great. Yeah. So I. There's a lot of things I really love about the last version I sent you. I'm really curious to get more feedback and input and update from you. Yeah. And my, you know, we started this project months ago. Now my process has evolved a lot. Our tool sets have evolved, our team has evolved. We've lost Ellen, unfortunately, she's moved on. We have other team members and I'm excited to get this up for you. I think we can move quickly and we can talk about new technologies we're using that we might want to incorporate now.

00:20:26

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:20:28

James Redenbaugh: So, yeah, I'm curious to hear. Hear from you updates, what you're thinking.

00:20:33

Peter Wrinch: Totally so needs. I think, I think like, one, there's a couple things I've been thinking about since I saw the last iteration. I think it, it. It's definitely moving in the right direction. I was thinking a lot about the circle. Right. I think that's kind of what I've been focused on. And some of it was like spending time in Japan. And I think that like, so I've also. The other thing that I've been. I've been like, evolving is like, just so you know, I really talk about this accompaniment model is like, it's not strategic advisory, it's not coaching, and yet it is all of those things. And I think that for me, this is why the circle metaphor is like, really hitting home for me. I'm like, oh, yeah, like, let's feature the circle in. As the central metaphor. And so I was in San Francisco yesterday and I was in the airport and I saw this And I'll just show you. I'll just share it. It's not perfect, but I took a picture of it because I wanted to show you. I was like, this is interesting. Can you see that?

00:21:47

James Redenbaugh: Yeah.

00:21:48

Peter Wrinch: So like again, like this circle coming through. And like when I look at this cover, I'm like, oh, the central metaphor here. I mean, you know, the Japanese phenomena is interesting. So they're. Obviously someone made this to appear Japanese. But what I liked about it is that the circle is the fundamental metaphor. And so I think that like, I got stop sharing. I think that that's kind of what I've been feeling more and more recently. I have this like, write up that I'll send you after. Hold on. Just like, I just make a note of that. It's like in my recent sort of contracts with people where I talk about accompaniment. So all that to say is, I think design wise, using the circle as the central metaphor and on the pages, I think whatever work we did with Ellen already, we don't actually need to do much more than a very simple. I think the site map or the structure was actually very simple.

00:23:03

James Redenbaugh: And.

00:23:04

Peter Wrinch: And I think that that's fine. I think like there's probably like an. But I think honestly, if we just like get a very simple architecture that uses the circle as the metaphor that isn't too like austere as we had that conversation a few months ago. Like, I don't want full austerity, like black, white, you know, Like, I think it does need color and those colors that all of the color stuff still remains the same. But I. I've just been really. I feel like there was a website I saw that was like, let me just see if I can find one. This one. Okay. This is not exactly perfect, but I'll just show it to you. So I don't actually know what that is in the background. Like it's maybe an eye or it's. But like I was just thinking, like, what would a circle look like here with light? But anyways, so that's kind of where I am. I'm. I would love to. I would love to have it live by the end of May is kind of where I'm thinking. It's given us April 21st. Yeah. So that's kind of where I'm at.

00:24:39

James Redenbaugh: Cool. Awesome. I'm gonna bring up this working copy doc that we have but homepage about offerings, insights. So tell me more about the circle and how you're imagining. It can function on the website and carry through and feel free to be Vague.

00:25:09

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, I will be vague. Okay. So I'm going to go back.

00:25:15

James Redenbaugh: I love, love the new here now.

00:25:17

Peter Wrinch: Oh, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, it is. Yeah, totally. Because the other one was work. You're dying soon. And I just, I think I was, I was ready to move on. Sorry. To move on.

00:25:29

James Redenbaugh: Cool. So.

00:25:31

Peter Wrinch: So when I. What. I think when I saw this in the airport yesterday, there were a couple of things that appealed to me about it. One is that the circle here is a little mysterious. Like, you're actually not sure where it goes. I mean, obviously, like, we can put it together, like, because we understand this, but I think, like, that's something I like. And it's obviously a brush stroke too. Right? And so I think, like, I think that the circle on the website can either appear in its fullness or it can appear in, in ways like this. But it is a background. It's not, it doesn't need to be foregrounded. It is a background. And I think why that's feeling more important to me as, you know, like, I'm, I'm basically like approaching two years in this, in this work, in this business. And what I'm realizing more and more and more is that what I'm really selling, like, what is at the heart of my deal with people is,.

00:26:50

James Redenbaugh: And.

00:26:51

Peter Wrinch: I use the circle metaphor for this. It's like, it's like a full service partnership. It's like, like I really feel this way. Like, I have this client, Mount Madonna, which I've talked about a lot, and the contract is ending soon. But the way that I've treated them as a, as a client is like, they, we, we agreed on a deal and then I'm just with them. I don't, I don't check hours. I, I, you know, like, it's not like I'm, you know, giving them 100 hours a month or anything like that, but I, like, I, but I rarely ever say no. You know, I showed, I showed up in the course of the contract three times to their location. I'm with them the whole time. I'm going like, oh, can you come to this meeting? It's totally outside scope. Sure, I'll go to that meeting. You know, like, I'm, I'm just in. And that's what I, like. I, you know, I feel like I'm okay keeping my own boundaries. So, like, it's. I, I think I'm not worried about boundaries. Sometimes when I say it out loud, it sound, sort of sounds like maybe, oh, I'd be worried about boundaries if I was a younger person, but I. I'm not. Like, I.

00:28:12

James Redenbaugh: And you're charging enough that.

00:28:14

Peter Wrinch: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And. And that's the other thing, James, is like, my bill. Like, my. My price point is not cheap. Like, and so I'm not. Like, I'm not. And I. You know, like, I'm not the best at, like, tracking margins and all that kind of stuff, but I. I have enough of it in my head that I'm like, oh, yeah, no, I have a pretty good margin there. So, like, I can be generous. I can be. I can show care. But that's, for me, that's what the circle almost represents.

00:28:52

James Redenbaugh: And you're. You don't have a lot of expenses, right? You're not subcontracting out a lot of stuff?

00:28:57

Peter Wrinch: No, not really. I. Like, I do. I. I have. But. But mostly it's me, you know?

00:29:05

James Redenbaugh: Yeah.

00:29:06

Peter Wrinch: Like, my largest expense, quite frankly, is travel. But other than that, which a lot of that I built with a client anyways. So I think, like, for me, what I'm getting more and more clear about and more and more confident about is that I can put this out in the world and people will pay for it. And I think, like, this came up for me a couple weeks ago. I can't remember. I was talking to someone who I hadn't talked to in a while, and they're like, oh, you're a strategic advisor. And I'm like, nope. I'm like, like, that happens. I get it. Like, I. I've been doing this for 20 years. Like, I have some strategic advice to give, but that's not what I lead with. And so the circle, to me, represents that. It's it. And it also has some mystery and some beauty to it. Like, those things are important to me. So I. I see it as, like, the dominant metaphor. Visual metaphor.

00:30:12

James Redenbaugh: Cool.

00:30:13

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:30:13

James Redenbaugh: Awesome. You're not a strategic advisor. What else are you not. You know, what else could you be seen as but aren't?

00:30:26

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, Shaman. Yeah, Shaman. So another one is. Another one is coach. Like, that's a big one. People are like, oh, you're a coach. I'm like, nope. That being said, like, I will literally write in my proposals, like, coaching for success. But I don't. Like, if you were like, hey, Peter, and. And you know what? Like, I'm. I'm experimenting with it all. But, like, if you were like, hey, Peter, like, I really like your vibe. Like, could you. Could you life coach me? My answer is usually no, because, like, I don't. It. I. I did put A proposal out last week to a politician who I've been mentoring for a long time. And she asked me if I would be her coach. And it's the first time ever I put something out like that. But that. Usually it's not that. For me, it's about organizational transition. But. Yeah. So coach is the other one. I think it was funny, was that this gathering, the one that. With the AI talk, this woman came up to me and she was like, oh, my God, I'm so glad you're here. The men here, they need men like you. Could you lead a men's circle? And I'm, I was like, I didn't laugh at her, but I like laughing. I was laughing inside because I'm like, oh, my God, like, I've never led a men's circle. And you know, like, I think that type of, like Shamani kind of. Can you hold the space? I'm not that either. Like, I'm not a facilitator. That's like one, but. But like, I do all those things in this accompaniment, this partnership work. That's very picky. So that's where, like, you know, if we did draw a circle, it's like there's a. There's facilitation, there's coaching, there's strategic advisory, there's, you know, strategic planning even. But I don't go out on any of those. I go for the whole thing and the relationships at the center for me. Yeah.

00:32:38

James Redenbaugh: Awesome.

00:32:39

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. So I think, like, any way we can, like, center the work around this, this full picture circle. That's kind of what I'm looking to do. Yeah.

00:32:59

James Redenbaugh: Cool.

00:33:00

Peter Wrinch: So I guess, like, here's a question, James. What do you need from me? If we're like, okay, let's, let's, let's press go on this. Let's like, switch. Let's flick the switch on the DNS by the end of May. What do you need from me?

00:33:17

James Redenbaugh: Great question. So there's two primary domains of ingredients for a website. The content and the design. And as a designer, ideally we have the content to, to design for. But in, in reality, there's always a kind of back and forth, seeing things in context, designing the content and, and having the, the design, you know, reinforce and tell the story that the, the content wants to tell. So the main thing we need is, You know, firm understanding of that, of that story. We have this working copy doc, and I'm curious how what's there resonates at this point. Yep. And I think that the, you know, the most critical Part of any website is the, the top of the homepage and the story that we tell there. So really deciding together what, what words are going to make the most sense there and what visuals. We can have a big circle. We can do creative things with that circle. Say, having it persist, having it. Maybe that circle sticks in, in the background and, you know, maybe it rotates. Maybe the navigation relates to that. But what I'm hearing you share about is your sense of your offering as this dynamic being. That's not just a field, it's not just a space you're holding. It's not just a role you're playing. There's a packed, a passive and an active component. There's a presence, there's a relationality and that we want to tell poetic and powerful stories about that and create visuals that reflect that, because there's not. We're not going to define it. It's like a moving, moving river. We can design the banks around it, but we don't want to pin it, pin it down. So let's think about what's the, what's the poetry that can speak to that without it necessarily being about that. I. I think that the content can be more about the, the client and the spaces you're in service to, or the times we're in, or the transformation and transitions that you can catalyze.

00:37:03

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:37:06

James Redenbaugh: And so we want to think about. Worlds. You know, the world we're in, the worlds your clients are in. The more beautiful world we all know is possible. You know, the role that your clients and their centers play in that. In that world. You ever play any video games?

00:37:38

Peter Wrinch: When I was young, until about grade nine, I played. So I'm probably 10 years older than you, so at least. And so it was Nintendo and Super Nintendo. So like. Yeah, that's what I've played. Like Zelda, these types of games.

00:37:58

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, Zelda came to mind. You've got some Zelda vibes. Because it's like there's a. There's no single world that we're all a part of. We're in these, these domains that are shaped by narratives and retreat center owners and the kind of clients that you work with are. You know, in a way we could say they're in the same world. In another way that we could say they're. They each have their own world. Yeah. And they're all interrelated. And I. The sense I get is that one core advantage that you bring is your sense of that world, your experience in that world and in world creation. You know, when you were leading Hollyhock, you created a world there, not unlike, you know, the world of Zelda, or there's, you know, magical things to do and resources to gather and different roles that different people are. Are playing in that. And. Clients, I'm sure, get very embedded in their particular kingdom and their particular platform.

00:39:27

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:39:27

James Redenbaugh: And you're aware that, you know, not only is there a whole map to explore, but there's also different platforms and different consoles and worlds outside of this world that need to be interfaced with.

00:39:42

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:39:42

James Redenbaugh: And you speak a lot of those languages.

00:39:45

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:39:45

James Redenbaugh: And so obviously.

00:39:48

Peter Wrinch: You know what, James? This is so good. It's so, so cool. I love this because, actually, you're touching on something that is real. Often when I'm working with a leader, they are in their own world. Like, they're on their level, whatever, you know, Like. Like, if we think about Zelda and. And on some level, what I am. And maybe this is why the Circle matters for me, is. Is. It's like a portal or it's like a vision. Like, because there is something like. So one of the things that become. And I might have said this to you already, like, months ago, but I'm really clear about it, is that I only work with leaders of retreat centers that want to change in, like, the language we're talking today, levels or want to change worlds. Like, if you're kind of like. Like, I remember last year, at some point, I was talking to Esalen, and, like, I knew the people, and I was kind of surprised. It didn't go very far. Like, they were just kind of like, nah, we're good. And I was like, oh, I get it now. Like, you're in your world, and your world's good. Like, in your mind, you know, Even though from the outside, I can see the different worlds, but, like, when I think about Prabha, Mount Madonna, the reason why we're so good together is. Is because she. She clearly is in her world, but she knows there's other realities, and she's like, how do we get there? And you, Peter, are some journey. Like, you're some. I mean, maybe this is the shaman, right? Like, you're. You're some Sherpa or whatever it is, you know, you're some trail guide. You know, And I think that that's, like. I think that on some level, this is, like. And this is why it's, like, not strategic advisory. Right? Like, I'm not. I'm not sitting and going. Well, like, you're. You know, your revenues are blah, blah, Blah. And if we increase your margin by 5%, like, and this is what that will mean. It's actually world building. Like, it's like, it's much deeper. Sorry. And there's one other thing I just want to say, so. So when I was in Santa Cruz just this week with Mount Madonna, I ended up like, going on a walk with one someone who facilitated that AI gathering. And she was quite like a person like this too. And we were walking along the beach in Santa Cruz. I was like, you know, beautiful water, beautiful cliffs, town. And she was kind of talking about how, like, we're in this reality, but all the other realities are all adjacent. And I think I've brought this up to you before as well, but it reminds me of the first I watched on, I think, Apple tv, Dark Matter. And then I read the book, and it's about this physicist who figures out superposition. Have you seen it? Did you watch the show?

00:43:03

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, yeah.

00:43:04

Peter Wrinch: And he. So he moved. He's constantly trying to get back to his world. But the thing that blew. Blew my mind is on, like, the meta level or systemic level for retreat centers.

00:43:20

James Redenbaugh: There's they.

00:43:20

Peter Wrinch: There's one journey they go to where they end up in a. In our world, but it's a much happier version. And then I think in the show. I'm pretty sure it's in the show, the woman decides to stay there. She's just like, I just want to stay here. But he's like, no, I gotta go find my world. And like, on some level, that's like the meta, like, question for me is like, if all of these centers thrived, could we create that more compassionate world?

00:43:58

James Redenbaugh: Yeah.

00:43:59

Peter Wrinch: I had a dark matter. Really. Like, I don't know if I read it at the right time, but it really sunk in for me.

00:44:08

James Redenbaugh: And I imagine. Ideally these centers aren't just a world that people can go to, but a junction of worlds. You know, like elevator to different worlds. And. And different people get different things.

00:44:31

Peter Wrinch: Yep.

00:44:32

James Redenbaugh: Going there.

00:44:33

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:44:35

James Redenbaugh: And, you know, and so they can come back again and again through their whole life and continue. Continue their journeys.

00:44:44

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:44:44

James Redenbaugh: And it's not about being there and having this. That escape ideally. It's about building that world in their own self, in their own life. So I'll leave the retreat center, but I haven't really left. Yeah, it's still. It's still here. And so in a way, you kind of play a role for the retreat center that's similar to the real. The role that the retreat center plays to the participant.

00:45:17

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I just want to say one thing because it's such an important point because I think that like I can sometimes even myself drop into despair about. Oh, retreat centers are just these like, like retail commodity spaces where people go and like feel good for four days and then like, and then they, but, but I've learned over the years not to judge that because I can't see. Into the heart of someone that has that ex. Like, I just don't know, you know, like what it means for, you know, a 55 year old white lady from Missouri to go Tesla. Like, I just don't know, like, I don't know what the ripple effects of that, but I do know. I believe that that's better than going to Walt Disney World. I just believe that, like it's not the same, you know?

00:46:28

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, yeah. I spent, this is kind of random, but in high school I did a exchange for a few weeks to a super rural town in Kansas. And like the one thing that they had in the town was a Dairy Queen.

00:46:47

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:46:48

James Redenbaugh: And I went to a Dairy Queen last night. So I was thinking about this and I remember the kids there, like the cultural center was this the dq. The dq. It was like the highlight of their, their week if they got to go there. And you know, being from a city, that's kind of sad, but it's better than not having a Dairy Queen. You know, it's, it's better than not having that at all. So there's always. Yeah, there can be brightness in anything, in any, any space and any path.

00:47:31

Peter Wrinch: Yeah, totally.

00:47:35

James Redenbaugh: Cool.

00:47:36

Peter Wrinch: So, yeah, I think that you, you really hit on something around like this world building. Like I think that there's, It goes funny. I'll just share an anecdote. So the new CEO of Hollyhock, her name's Katya. And Katya and I have like struck up a friendship and I, I reach out to her. Like I'm active. I, I reach out and I'm just like, oh, hey, how's it going? Blah, blah, blah, how's it going? How's it going? And she's like, she, she left me a voice note on one day this weekend and she's like, oh, this and this and this and, but she's like, you know, but you just like, you, you keep like offering me support and I want it to be mutual and, and like, I hope you are, you can tell me what you need. And I just, I, I, I sent a voice note back. I didn't text, I sent a voice note back, which I don't usually do. I actually find voice notes a little annoying, but I was like. I was like, hey, you know, honestly, just being in this with you is. Is what feels good to me. Like, you don't. Like, you don't need to find a. You know, like, I didn't say this in the voice note, but, like, a quid pro quo. Like, it's not like that for me, like, because what is feeling engaging to me is the world building. Like, it. I'm so glad you're taking it, because I could. I didn't have the stamina anymore, you know, And I kind of feel that with my clients, too. It's like. I think the thing that excites me is the potential of what they could be, even if they never quite get there. Yeah.

00:49:29

James Redenbaugh: Yeah.

00:49:32

Peter Wrinch: And I think that that's, like. That's honestly the thing that I can charge for. Like, that's. I think that that's kind of what they're buying.

00:49:44

James Redenbaugh: A friend of mine who's a spiritual teacher sometimes makes a distinction that some people are like, planets, you know, and it's awesome to aspire to be a. A planet, a whole. A whole world. Probably most people don't get there. And some people are like stars with multiple planets, and some people are black holes that are, you know, the. The place where stars are born. And it sounds like you're venturing to be a black hole. And these retreat centers are stars.

00:50:38

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:50:40

James Redenbaugh: And their participants are planets, and.

00:50:44

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:50:47

James Redenbaugh: And so that's known. No small task. It's really big and big and beautiful.

00:50:54

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:50:55

James Redenbaugh: Yeah.

00:50:56

Peter Wrinch: So what I. I will do is I'll go back to the working copy document, and I'll just. I'll engage that document because I haven't looked at it in a while.

00:51:10

James Redenbaugh: Great. Okay. And then do you have time to meet again next week? And. Yeah, I would love about how it's going.

00:51:18

Peter Wrinch: I think it would be great to just, like, get Cadence going. Let me just look at next week. Time. I. I could probably. Yeah, I definitely do. You tell me what day. What. Thursday at 11, my time. I'm actually pretty. Like, I've got a bit of stuff, like, a bit of time. Like, I could also. Also do.

00:52:07

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, that'd be great.

00:52:09

Peter Wrinch: Thursday, 11. Okay, great. I'll. I'll add it. Okay,.

00:52:27

James Redenbaugh: Great.

00:52:28

Peter Wrinch: Okay. So I'll. I'll work on the document, and I'll have something finished by then.

00:52:35

James Redenbaugh: Awesome.

00:52:36

Peter Wrinch: Okay.

00:52:38

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, sounds good. Excited to see what comes of that. And you sent me an invite there. Great. Yeah.

00:52:52

Peter Wrinch: And.

00:53:01

James Redenbaugh: And then we'll. We'll take what comes up out of that and see what visuals want to be created in support of that.

00:53:10

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:53:12

James Redenbaugh: And how to bring people into that. Into that place.

00:53:19

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. Yeah. Great.

00:53:22

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. I'm kind of seeing it as, like, this. Like, how can they come up above it all and see the terrain and feel like they have space to un. Unpack their world and. Yeah. Not just be surrounded with their challenges and commitments and people they're responsible to and people they need to delegate to, but how can they get. Have the experience of coming up above it and have some space to work on things? It totally.

00:54:01

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:54:02

James Redenbaugh: Yeah.

00:54:03

Peter Wrinch: That's interesting. You say that and I'll pop off, but it is interesting. In all of my work, the first step is some version of what you just said. It's some version of level setting or, like, what did I call it recently? I called it, like, knowing the field. Just being honest. Like, I think I'm also, like, very. I'm very influenced by this idea of, like, facing the world as it is. And so, like, just being like. Like, I literally sent something this morning where these people are asking me, like, oh, can you come help us? And I'm like, well, I'm not sure you need my help. I actually think you need something else. I will help you if we can agree on the frame that what I can do with you is just a small part of a larger. And so we'll see what they say. But I think it's like, there's this, like, how do you sort of ground in what is real around you enough so that you can come up?

00:55:11

James Redenbaugh: Mm. Yeah. Cool.

00:55:14

Peter Wrinch: Yeah.

00:55:18

James Redenbaugh: All right, man.

00:55:19

Peter Wrinch: Okay. Good to see you.

00:55:21

James Redenbaugh: Awesome. Good to see you, Peter.

00:55:23

Peter Wrinch: Yeah. Talk soon.

00:55:23

James Redenbaugh: Talk to you next week.

00:55:24

Peter Wrinch: Okay.

00:55:25

James Redenbaugh: Ciao.