00:00:00

James Redenbaugh: Hey, everybody.

00:00:02

Andreas Fauler: Hello.

00:00:06

James Redenbaugh: Full house over here.

00:00:09

Andreas Fauler: Absolutely.

00:00:10

Will Dragon: Cool.

00:00:14

Andreas Fauler: Everybody here. Cool.

00:00:16

James Redenbaugh: Everybody's here. Look at this. And AIs as well.

00:00:24

Andreas Fauler: Yeah. I had a meeting recently where there were more AIs than humans. So I would say probably next time our avatars meet and we just stay in the sun.

00:00:37

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, next time just the AIs can meet and.

00:00:41

Andy Bittner: Sounds great.

00:00:42

Frank Kuhnecke: Yeah.

00:00:43

James Redenbaugh: How's everybody doing?

00:00:45

Will Dragon: Good, good. How are you?

00:00:48

James Redenbaugh: Good. Getting ready for a big trip tomorrow. Lots of things to do, packing. Have to write a talk about AI, actually.

00:01:01

Will Dragon: Where are you heading?

00:01:03

James Redenbaugh: I'm gonna ask AI to write it. I'm speaking at a conference this weekend in Asheville and then I'm heading to a gathering in off of Vancouver island in Canada.

00:01:16

Will Dragon: Nice.

00:01:17

Andy Bittner: Oh, nice.

00:01:20

James Redenbaugh: Good to meet you. Will. We haven't met yet.

00:01:23

Will Dragon: Yeah, nice to meet you. James andy.

00:01:27

James Redenbaugh: I thought you were in London, but looks like you're in.

00:01:31

Will Dragon: This is London, the summer year. It's beautiful.

00:01:34

James Redenbaugh: Wow. I had no idea.

00:01:36

Will Dragon: Yeah.

00:01:38

Andreas Fauler: London beach.

00:01:41

Will Dragon: This is the Thames.

00:01:43

Frank Kuhnecke: Wow.

00:01:45

James Redenbaugh: Facet. So believable. And everybody, this is Andy. Happy to introduce you, Andy. Andy's in. Outside of Munich.

00:01:57

Andy Bittner: Yep. Correct.

00:01:59

Andreas Fauler: Hey, cool.

00:02:00

Andy Bittner: Nice to meet you.

00:02:03

Andreas Fauler: Nice to meet you too. Yeah. Do we need an introduction round? I'm probably very briefly. Or not. Because I think Frank and myself, you know. Okay. No, Andy, not. Would we structure the meeting? Brief introductions? Probably, yeah.

00:02:21

James Redenbaugh: Let's do a brief intro. Why not?

00:02:25

Andreas Fauler: I start because I know everybody except for Andy, but I know the most people. I know Bill for quite some time and he's doing wonderful design work, logo work. He's. We were collaborating in multiple projects. It was always super cool opera and very different styles. And the logo here is the SEZ Kung Fu logo. It's the Chinese stamps. It's the same, let's say idea behind and yeah, probably we share also some other things. What we at the moment have is a logo and slidek design. But probably we will gather it later. But really, yeah, wonderful collaboration over many years. And James was. It was also a great collaboration some years ago. But you and your team, you created the Kubernetes XYZ website which was also very cool.

00:03:23

Andreas Fauler: And there, yeah, it was the full creative work, starting with an idea to bringing it to life. And so it was also very inspiring and also very nice outcome. And now I think, yeah, we have a lot of people with a soul here, which is always the biggest fun. And I'm really curious how it evolves. Of course there needs to be some alignment and iterations, but I'm really looking forward if we will continue in this setup. I think it will be fun and hopefully a great outcome here also. So really looking forward. So so much for. And I'm based in Frankfurt and yeah, the rest I think you know, except for any.

00:04:14

Andreas Fauler: I have a sales background 4 years I'm self employed investing and advising mostly on sales startups and sales Kung Fu, as the name says, is not a methodology or let's say it's what is it if it's not about. We learned nobody needs methodologies because they have so many already. It's a. It's a framework that helps you when you're in front of the customer. I mean, let's say it this way, you have a lot of methodology, a lot of sales playbooks but when you're in front of the customer it does not tell you much what you do there. So I would say then you can lean to says Kung Fu. But we will talk a lot about it. I guess so far so much. Frank, go next.

00:05:14

Frank Kuhnecke: Okay, fine. Frank. I'm working for my own company since about 30 years changing companies and I'm a psychologist and I'm specialized on change process and communication. And that's the way sales Kung Fu was developed. It was developed by the question of Microsoft. They sponsored this first time we have a lot of good negotiator and they are all very good trained. But some of them are good and some of them are not. What's the difference? And we took a lot of videos and find out that there is a mathematic behind influencing people. And this is one of the roots of sales Kung Fu. And the other route is that you are not able to think a lot if you're in a discussion. And that's the reason why you do have to do it intuitively, spontaneously.

00:06:30

Frank Kuhnecke: And in this we want to train and my background for this is one of course psychology at an institute for neural ring and programming. I think in America. Nobody knows it anymore, huh? No. Linguistic programming is it still.

00:06:47

James Redenbaugh: I've heard of it. Nlp.

00:06:48

Frank Kuhnecke: Yeah, yeah, nlp. Okay. It's vanishing now. And I learned kung fu for 40 years, 20 years in China. And so we mix the training methods together. Yes, it's a great time. It cost me a lot of money. But living in China was one of the great times of my life.

00:07:16

Andy Bittner: I bet. I think like China is pretty exciting.

00:07:20

Frank Kuhnecke: Yeah. For me it was Taiwan, one of the groups who fled from the communists to Taiwan. But there are the same tough way they have tattoos was meant. I hate communists and Japanese. Okay. And Andreas and I met and he told me we have great playbooks, but in the moment of truth, if they have full contact, they fail. And it says, oh, we have something. And so we put it together. And I'm living near Frankfurt, a little to the north, in a very romantic town. If you have time to visit Germany in Le written like the Le King in World of Warcraft.

00:08:15

Andy Bittner: That's good. I know about that. I played way too many years.

00:08:22

Frank Kuhnecke: Me too. Okay, and.

00:08:27

James Redenbaugh: Next I'll go. You all know me, except Will. So I'll be brief. I'm. I'm James. I'm here in Philadelphia in the United States. I have a design studio, slash, a form amorphous collective network of creatives around the world and we proudly serve a lot of really unique and purpose driven organizations and building brands, websites, specializing in webflow animation. I'm a generalist. I like being in the middle and getting to know the clients, seeing what's possible and then finding the right solutions. And so I love being, you know, working collaboratively and working with new designers, bringing in other developers and finding what's best for the project and help making it happen. And I'll introduce Andy, who I'm just starting to work with very excitedly though.

00:09:42

James Redenbaugh: And he's worked a long time with a dear friend of mine, another German who lives in Florida now, who I've also worked with in the past. And so I know he's up to snuff and he has his own team and I'll. Andy, I'll let you introduce yourself.

00:10:05

Andy Bittner: Yeah, so I'm also like kind of a generalist and doing like mostly everything. And yes, I'm based in Munich. I started in an agency some years ago and yet I started just with just doing designs basically and then got more into developing and now I'm kind of full developing. I'm not designing anymore. So I have like people in my network who are doing the designs. I have some people who can also develop and I'm more focused on strategy and all that stuff behind of that and also developing. I started with WordPress like many years ago and then I got into webflow like I think last year or the year before. And yeah, like the long story short, I just like webflow more right now.

00:10:55

Andy Bittner: It's more scalable, it's just more durable and everything about that, I mean WordPress is also great, but it has like some downsides you don't have on webflow. Probably the other way around. But I think the future is on webflow to be honest. Yeah, I think so. That's the most about me. So.

00:11:21

Andreas Fauler: We have to travel to Munich or you to Frankfurt. We are not far away from each other.

00:11:26

Andy Bittner: Yeah, no worries. It's easy to.

00:11:28

Andreas Fauler: Or let's all meet in London.

00:11:34

Will Dragon: Tomorrow. So maybe you know, if everyone's quick we could do a quick meet up in Berlin. Okay.

00:11:42

Andreas Fauler: Tomorrow in Berlin.

00:11:44

Will Dragon: Tomorrow four days in Berlin. So.

00:11:46

Andreas Fauler: Oh, nice.

00:11:48

Will Dragon: Yeah, it'd be good. First time been to Munich but not Berlin. So looking forward to.

00:11:54

Andy Bittner: Will be different.

00:11:55

Andreas Fauler: It will be definitely different. Yeah, absolutely.

00:11:57

Andy Bittner: But totally contrast to Munich.

00:12:00

Andreas Fauler: Absolutely.

00:12:01

James Redenbaugh: I love Berlin. Berlin is my favorite city. I always say I used to have more friends in Berlin than any other one place. Even though I've never really lived there for more than a few months.

00:12:16

Andy Bittner: I've only been there for a weekend.

00:12:20

Frank Kuhnecke: You have some friends in Berlin. Berlin is a capital of graphic work in Germany now.

00:12:33

Andy Bittner: They're very open minded and everything. So that's a nice contrast.

00:12:37

Andreas Fauler: So we meet in. When we meet in Berlin. I was in another group and it was mainly us driven and they said they agreed on meeting in Hawaii and I said okay. Okay. This is probably the place most far away from me.

00:12:53

Will Dragon: Yeah. Although for me I'm. I'm right here.

00:12:56

Andreas Fauler: So yeah, we need your intro.

00:13:00

Will Dragon: Yeah. So Right. Okay. So I'm Will. I've. I like Andrea said. I've been working with him for now for a couple of years. For the last 17 years I've been running a graphic design company here in the UK along with a partner of mine. I got into doing kind of web3nft stuff back in 2020 which is kind of where I met up with Andreas. I a bit of a generalist myself. Not so much on the digital side although I. I like to dip my toes in the water, but more graphic design and illustration and. Yeah. So James, a lot of crossover with what you do. Kind of looking, you know, towards what a client needs and then finding a resolution to, you know, answering all of their deliverables that, you know, they require for whatever project they.

00:13:57

Will Dragon: They come to me with very much working in partnerships which is kind of how I run things on the business side of things as well. So tend to work with freelancers and partners when working on anything like that. So this setup for me is. Is kind of perfect.

00:14:18

Andreas Fauler: So great. Thanks.

00:14:22

James Redenbaugh: Awesome. Great. So the purpose of this call in my mind is to get to know each other and hone in on creating a plan of action for sales. Kung Fu for the. We can call it the version one of your guys's website. There's dreams of, you know, membership and online learning, but first goal is to get up a beautiful landing page slash brochure site introducing the offering, serving as a flag or business card. As you're doing outreach and networking this summer. And like we talked about on the last call, bringing the right visuals together with the right language in the right space is going to be key here.

00:15:22

Frank Kuhnecke: And.

00:15:24

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, I think that we can design a beautiful process to achieve all that together. I'm excited to team up with new people and see what we can do. And yeah, we can see where this conversation leads us. And then perhaps we can work asynchronously as creatives on a shared proposal where we can decide on who's going to play what role and how we need to frame compensation and maybe provide Frank andreas a couple options to choose from in terms of scope for this V1. Does that sound good and accurate?

00:16:19

Andreas Fauler: That sounds good. Frank and myself, we have prepared something. We have two things. We have a PowerPoint or Google Slides where we have some general topics. But I think Frank has created a mind map which is probably one page where most of the high level stuff is on. So probably. What about looking at this and then see what you need in addition for the first, let's say idea or I would say the scope. So yeah. Frank, should we share it?

00:16:55

Andy Bittner: It's good.

00:16:59

Andreas Fauler: Do you have it or. I have it also. I can open it.

00:17:04

Frank Kuhnecke: Good.

00:17:05

Andreas Fauler: Okay, so I'll go. Okay.

00:17:19

James Redenbaugh: All right.

00:17:26

Andreas Fauler: Here we go. On the top right you see the 16 SEMFU skills. Of course it's a little bit small now, but this is the essence at the end. And I'm looking if I can make it bigger. Probably a little bit. I hope you can read it. Can you read it?

00:17:50

Frank Kuhnecke: No, not too long. Not really.

00:17:53

Andreas Fauler: Not really. So I have to zoom in even more. Yeah, I need to move around. Let's start on the left side with. Yeah, you see the logo, you see the colors? This is work from Will we already use. And the type, the how it's. Yeah, exactly. That's in use in our PowerPoints mainly where we use it. And we are targeting sellers and heads of sales and to some extent founders. So. And probably mostly B2B software. Probably most definitely B2B but probably even B2B software mainly. And there are plenty of organizations out there. And on the top, bottom left, you see some initial thoughts about the sitemap, how it could be structured. At the end, explain why you need Says Kung Fu. Explain some of the concepts. We have changed the eight gates into two bases and six gates Will was exposed already.

00:19:08

Andreas Fauler: So we have some concepts we probably want to share. We want to show who is it, who is doing it. And probably we would also have. It's not. We would also have the products in there. So at the end there is some form of training, there's including a community, there's some form of advisory. So but this would be probably the. The essence of it. Of course we need to think of how we make bring it to life because it has some complexity. So let's see what makes sense. And yeah, I think many things we already have shared. We thought we talked about the playfulness which is probably not the very fundamental way of approaching business, at least in Germany, but probably everywhere. So really involving this kind of mindset and the Kung Fu idea. As you know, kung fu means regular practice.

00:20:10

Andreas Fauler: So really we want to invite the participants to continuously practice and experience the fun out of it and also the fun of being in not so fun situations. So really how can you work in high stakes, high stressful situations? And this can only be done if you have done it before and hopefully not in the most important meeting. So this is one part of the whole work.

00:20:41

Frank Kuhnecke: And to. To describe it. The problem is if you have very. I always forgot the English word for schlage. Andreas, can you help me?

00:20:55

Andreas Fauler: Not really, no.

00:20:56

Frank Kuhnecke: This is if you have a strange situation and you're able to answer at once and perhaps funny quick with it or something. What's the English word for it?

00:21:10

Andy Bittner: Translator says quick witted, but I never heard it before. Does it say something to you, Will and James?

00:21:15

Will Dragon: Yeah, quick witted. It just means that you're very fast off the mark with answer. And it's usually funny.

00:21:21

Andy Bittner: Yeah, yeah.

00:21:22

Frank Kuhnecke: This is always forget. And we analyzed a lot of people who are really quick with it and they have the sentence already prepared. In the past, no one is quick witted if he's totally surprised and never had the situation. And that's the idea of the sparing to create situation where your opponent or negotiation partner is doing something really strange. He's attacking you, he's starting direct with a prize, he's blaming you for things you have never done and so on. And then train what could be a good answer and repeat it a lot of times till you find your way of answering. Because it's relate to the person and do it and laugh if you fail. I'll have fun if you fail. So you give answer it explodes, the relation is ruined. And this you do better not in real negotiation.

00:22:33

Frank Kuhnecke: You do this in play situation. And this is the idea of playfulness. This is understandable. Yes, we are just looking for the short explanations, long explanations, easier, but for the short, we are still looking. Okay.

00:22:49

Andreas Fauler: I would say we will not touch the concepts here, which are hidden in here. But you have seen it and we probably can go into more details later. But at the end we have these skills. We have the gates or now two bases. The bases are relationship and the. The gates are the things where you get progress with your client. And then on the bottom you see the structure of the products. The assessment. This is one of the outcomes of the assessment. And you can see the green, red and blue and yellow. It's like on the 16 skills. So you get. We have an assessment where you get assessed based on the skills and everybody of you. If you want to do it, you can do it. And we can also have a look at your preferences and probably your weaknesses.

00:23:41

Andreas Fauler: So this is one product. And.

00:23:44

Frank Kuhnecke: Yeah, wait. I think it could be useful to spend two or three minutes to understand because if you understand this chart, you understand the idea. It's okay.

00:23:55

Andreas Fauler: Okay. Yeah, of course.

00:23:59

Frank Kuhnecke: This, this guy is a salesperson, a real salesperson. And if you see he is really good in suggestion, suggesting ideas and arguing, that's fine. He's quite strong, but he's quite weak in building relationships. So supporting other people, finding common ground, it's not his power listening. He's quite weak. So that means this person talks a lot and pushes a lot. And what he has to train is to build relationship, listen longer and so on. But these habits are unconscious. You, you do what you have done the last 20, 30, 40 or 60 years. And that's the first step. And he's quite okay in creating content, but he's totally weak in critical situation. To change topic, to avoid. Avoid the point, to make some sudden turns changing the topic.

00:25:21

Frank Kuhnecke: So if he got a critical and angry customer who don't want to listen to ideas, this person will be in trouble. If you have an audience who like ideas, fine. And the idea is train the styles you're weak at. So this is the beginning and this is even the first half of the seminars. And the second is to create complex situations, perhaps with two person and so on. Okay.

00:26:00

Andreas Fauler: Oh yeah, thanks a lot. Yeah. And we have the seminar and we have the Fight club, which would be kind of a community and we mentioned it, I think with most of you already. We have the seminars, we have the fight club. We are thinking of creating a. Let's say a program which probably can also have online content. But this is not. What's there is the assessment and the seminars and of course how we would do the fight clubs. And so this whole training material will probably also be. There will be online training materials in future also. And I think that's it from here. Yeah. Okay. So that's the first glimpse. We will share it with you afterwards. So I would say I think any questions on that immediately or curious how.

00:26:51

James Redenbaugh: You conduct these assessments? Is it a questionnaire that people fill out and then are these profiles auto generated?

00:26:59

Frank Kuhnecke: Yeah, it's an online assessment. In the past I did it with paper and now we have online.

00:27:07

James Redenbaugh: And so it automatically makes these graphs.

00:27:11

Frank Kuhnecke: Nearly automatically. You have to take hand on it two times because the switch from the service software to the graphic software is not automatic. But if you have 100 person a month, it's not a problem. If you get bigger, we have to automize it.

00:27:36

Andreas Fauler: And probably there will be additional assessments in the future. So there are some ideas what for other assessments also. Yeah, but this is what's there at the moment, let's say. Cool, all right, I'll stop sharing if not. If, if you're okay. And then other moons and I would say we have one half an hour left. We have a slide deck on designing sales Kung Fu with a little bit additional information. I would say we don't need to look at it now, but we share it with you so you can have a look. So there are some. Let's say yeah, where could it. Where could it go as a vision and so on in there. But I would say we'll share it afterwards and you can have a look at as you like. But this would be the initial input. I would say.

00:28:40

James Redenbaugh: Great. I'll just mention to plant the seed for this assessment, maybe not for version one, but for a future. I have played with these radial graphs and it is possible to build them into webflow in a way where people can complete an assessment and then immediately see a result in an interface that we would have complete design control over, which could be a nice part of a sales funnel for people to see things and be like oh, here I am, I'm going to sign up for this thing right now.

00:29:27

Will Dragon: Can you style that so that it fits into whatever your branding, you know, whatever you wanted to do? For instance, you can. You can style all that information to then correspond graphics etc.

00:29:40

James Redenbaugh: So yeah, completely at.

00:29:42

Frank Kuhnecke: At the moment the charts needs explanation because they're interconnected and. But this we also can do it automatically.

00:29:59

James Redenbaugh: Cool.

00:30:02

Frank Kuhnecke: Yours look better.

00:30:06

Andy Bittner: I think we can integrate everything that's important into that page if needed. So that's just a rough idea.

00:30:17

Andreas Fauler: And we have the idea of the sifu. The sifu is the grandmaster or the master of kung fu. And typically if you think of the grandmaster of kung fu, it's probably an old guy and you know how he speaks English and so on. So at the end this is one of the ideas that could play a role but it's probably. Probably not on the website but in the training. So whatever. So some ideas we have the gates. We could visualize the gates. I would say that would be cool. Quite nice to have visualizations for the gates and the bases. Probably very simple ones for the skills too. But this is 16 skills. I don't know. But how to bring it to life beyond what's already there. It's one interesting question from a design perspective. Yeah.

00:31:06

Frank Kuhnecke: At the. For design someone called me a design hillbilly and I think that's quite correct. But one of the major message is communication works another way, as you thought. And most people are addicted to arguments and what we find out arguments are least important. They don't work really very well and suggest don't work very well. It's more about timing, it's more about separating the styles and so on. It had nothing to do with the content. We don't know how to explain this but it's.

00:31:57

Andy Bittner: It's.

00:31:57

Frank Kuhnecke: To be honest, it's. It's another way to look to communication. It's not common sense. I think this is important for. For the lang, for the art of language or the graphics and so on.

00:32:13

James Redenbaugh: Awesome. Do we want to look at this deck together?

00:32:23

Andreas Fauler: Not sure if we can have a brief look, but probably we let. Let's share it. But I think it's probably very high level. But.

00:32:35

Frank Kuhnecke: From the content it's nearly the same.

00:32:39

Andreas Fauler: Let's. Let's go through it. We have with. We use the Chinese typefaces. Also there's an idea we. We mentioned moments of truth as we say it's only a few moments that make a difference as Frank said. So let's prepare and recognize them and then be very good. And at the end it's about diplomacy or any kind of influence. So not only sales, it could be used in other contexts too. And one concept that Frank made me aware of, I knew Dune, but of course the Bene Gesserit are these ladies who have the control but never tell Anything. This is one of our, this is our end state of the kung fu somehow. So it's really very subtle, but it's really being influential without obviously doing something and really very efficient, let's say. And yeah, so this is one of our inspirations.

00:33:44

Andreas Fauler: The rest I would say I skip. As I said, there's an idea to do social kung fu because it could be used in project management, it could be used in diplomacy, it could be used in leadership and any other things where you want to influence. Then that was an idea. What kind of elements and things we might need that we. We play. We have the seafood, the past, the gates. So these are elements, more or less the personality we touched already. Here are some more. Yeah, framings. At the end, you somehow have to reject the premise and say we do it differently and intentionally different than the mainstream. B water is well known from Bruce Lee, but it also means you have to be moving and it's not a fixed thing.

00:34:37

Andreas Fauler: You have to always be, let's say, flexible and agile and you have to act with determination. So this refers a little bit to the inner state we also have in the model. So you have to have the right state and the right stand to be very effective. Yeah, but everything was playfulness. Then there was the idea around the fight club. There is a triad which is not positively graded or positively element, but somehow some levels, some structure could evolve out of it. It's some things we like, but you can read through them later. Nlp, this is a neural linguistic programming. It's also the idea of, let's say, thinking in systems, thinking in networks, and at the end changing an organization, a system from state A to state B.

00:35:33

Andreas Fauler: And sales is something like this because you innovate most of the time with software or technology. That is something I think we already have. We have the idea of some kind of inner circle which would be the kitchen and the sales. Kung fu would be the meal and you would have an inner circle that could be. Have a different design language in the future. More crazy, let's say. But the meal should be very high quality, very simple, nice. And yeah, million dollar. Like these are the customer profiles we are looking into. So it's mainly founders and salespeople. Initially we thought it's mainly the ones that are already very good in sales. But in the meantime we say, okay, it can be a value for everybody and sometimes it's better if you are not having too much information in your head.

00:36:35

Andreas Fauler: And what we also know is if you're experienced, many people stop Learning. So the biggest importance for the experienced guys is to maintain the growth mindset and say okay, I can learn. This is not the majority of people as we already found out. These are the three, let's say Kung Fu levels.

00:36:59

Frank Kuhnecke: And I feel level. Taido means the stealing student. He came to your school, steal some techniques and went away. Seeing means elder student and sifu means he already knows. And a vision is we do two trainings. First is Taido, second is see him and maybe we do a trainer in the future. That's the reason why we took these names. Whether they are good or not, I don't know.

00:37:33

Andreas Fauler: They are the Kung Fu names. Let's see. So nobody knows them in western world or only a few know them. But yeah, it's the original Kung Fu style. These are the gates. Let's jump over them. Here is a little bit of a structure, inner gate, people. Gate is the base. And then you have the others where you move from left to right more or less with and touching different roles. And the most important one are economic buyer and champion. So you have two main people on even if it's a big sale and a big organization where you have a very good relationship. And this means very trustful. How do you get to a highly trustful relationship with these key players in let's say 8, 10 interactions and not 30? And how can you get even deeper into the.

00:38:24

Andreas Fauler: How can you build an even deeper connection or relationship than in most of the times? So this is at the end, the gates. Here are the skills. We already mentioned them. I think we have explained the high level already to most of you, so I would skip it now. Fight Club was also mentioned already. This is the old timeline which we are not anymore in, so we skipped it. And this is the sitemap idea first part. And this is the second part for the products. And that's it. Okay. Yeah. So some more high level stuff in there. I posted the link in the chat so if you want you can have a look later also or add some comments or what else.

00:39:25

James Redenbaugh: Great. Can you also share the mind map that were looking at?

00:39:30

Andreas Fauler: Yeah, I'll send it to you via PDF after the meeting. And I think we need to somehow define the scope, the initial scope or. Yeah, James, you mentioned you probably come up with different levels or packages. I would say we would be great if you give us an idea of which are the cost drivers or which are the elements that makes a difference. And probably we also should discuss how we divide the work. From my perspective, it would be design with Will and website creation with James andy. But I'm not sure if there are anything gray area. So somehow I think we need to figure it out at some point because I guess we will. We will have two divided proposals. So at the end everybody should. Would have to know what's the responsibility somehow. Yeah, yeah.

00:40:34

Will Dragon: So from my point of view, the best way forward would probably just be to. Because I think what we discussed previously, Andreas, was that the. And I think Frank agreed was that the concept is potentially quite confusing to people looking at it afresh. So it was about. And as James kind of touched on earlier, was about kind of getting something that worked a basic level. So it was almost like the elevator pitch, so that it was easy to understand, easy for people to digest and take away what it is that you're offering without going too much into.

00:41:13

Andy Bittner: The.

00:41:15

Will Dragon: Details as to what exactly everything is, because it might be too much of an information overload. So it was about kind of having that simplicity. So for me it's about agreeing what we need to say to someone as a first stage of, you know, on the website and how we kind of get them to like pique their interest to then send a request over to you guys for more information and then obviously then what that looks like potentially.

00:41:48

Andreas Fauler: Okay, makes sense. So at the end, yeah, we will not expose the 16 skills probably in the format we have it now, so. But we will. I mean, at the end it's a teaser and we want the people to engage with us and they need to understand somehow the beauty and the potential, but they don't. It's not to explain everything. Yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah.

00:42:13

Andy Bittner: So then we have to outline like a rough customer journey, like what are the touching points or people like getting to know you, what is like the next step and what is to step after it and so on. And from there we can go into like a side map planning and we can say like, okay, we go with the one pager maybe, or we go with three pages or we go with five pages or whatever. And we need something like a membership thing with Stage, with Dashboard and whatsoever, or we don't need it, all the functionality that might be involved, or it's not involved.

00:42:47

Andy Bittner: We have to see the customer journey to know what functionality we need on a website, what should the website be doing, what's the role of the website and then we can talk about which functions are needed, which aren't needed, and how to design everything and how to work out the content for everything, like copy and everything. So that's at least my approach, how I work normally.

00:43:12

Will Dragon: Yeah, I. I completely agree.

00:43:15

Frank Kuhnecke: I agree.

00:43:16

Andy Bittner: And then we know which pages we need, and then we can go into design. And then we can also go and say we have two different or three different approaches about the complexity of the design maybe, because I think we can, like, be really, really creative with all your skills, Gates and stuff like that, but we can also do it, like, really basic, and that's just a different budget we need. If we go and make it, like, super interactive, super fancy, super nice on a website with all this Gates idea and everything, we need more budget than. Okay, it's just an image and some text on the bottom. You know the differences.

00:43:51

Andreas Fauler: I mean, if you. I know it from sales, if you answer all questions in the first call, you will never meet the customer again. Or at the end, you always need a cliffhanger. In sales calls, you make them shorter than the customer wants them, and you always need a cliffhanger. And I guess it's somehow also in the website world, if you get every information you want, there's no need to call to reach out. And so we need somehow the. Yeah, the.

00:44:23

Andy Bittner: Yeah, we have to, like. We have to, like, find the first entry for a client or, like, a prospect, and we have to promote this. And then from that point, we can go into the upsells. You know, like, let's say, like the. The graphic you showed us, like, the Persona on, like, what's. What are. What are his, like, good skills and what is he lacking? This could be, like, the entry product or the entry service. So the first one. And then from there you go, okay, you see, like, you're lacking this, and that. And if you buy, like, this package or this service, then you upsell it and then you can tell them, okay.

00:44:58

Andreas Fauler: That'S the next step for you.

00:45:00

Andy Bittner: And you get them into your, like, ecosystem with, like, a lower entry price than if you go there and like, okay, that's our fight club. It's like 3k per month. Let's go. Like, nobody's gonna do that, or, like, just a few people will do that. If you say, here's like, the analysis and everything, you can go for, like, 100 bucks. I don't know. And just the reason. Throwing numbers in there, because I don't know how much effort you guys are putting into that. There's something we have to, like, talk about and learn.

00:45:28

Andy Bittner: But let's say that's like, just your lower product, like, low budget product, and people can buy it for 100 bucks or something then you have them in your ecosystem and then upselling is super easy, but like getting them into something that's 3, 5, 10, 20k is really hard without like having like a low barrier to entry.

00:45:49

Andreas Fauler: Makes sense. So at the end, a founder has different problems than a sales manager at SAP, let's say. So it's really. And you. Yeah, and this is really a different pitch, I would say. And at the end, somehow it's our pitch that somehow needs to be represented. Yeah, makes sense. Yeah. Okay.

00:46:08

Will Dragon: And the problem for me, I think it was always. Sorry I was gonna say, I think for me it's always about the, it's about, yeah, sort of gating the information. So you need to get people across, you know, the, the, the barrier to get to a point and then you start to kind of feed them more information. The more in depth and the more they sign up for then, you know, then we can start to talk. Because I, because I think that initially can be a lot of information to take in. So you don't want to kind of confuse people. You want to kind of hint as to what there is. And you know, obviously, you know, the kind of pitch around the kind of kung fu approach and the training and all of that kind of stuff is like, it's really fun.

00:46:52

Will Dragon: So you know, there's a, there's a really good kind of hook for, for people at that point. And then the, once you get down into the detail is something that would happen at a much later date and then maybe there's another website that is the back end which is all around the training etc. So yeah, I agree that the kind of front end needs to be, you know, getting people excited and you know, peaking their interest is as to kind of what that is. And then like you say, kind of getting into the sort of nitty gritty of everything is something that could be done at a later date with a more extensive website. And I think again, a website is going to be a really intuitive way to understand the steps.

00:47:38

Will Dragon: Andy, I think as you suggested, you know, there's a lot of stuff that can be done with that and you know, how that's approached is going to be important because I think the interactiveness will help people to understand the journey.

00:47:51

Andy Bittner: Yeah, for sure.

00:47:54

Frank Kuhnecke: And the problem we have, we are too deep in the matter and we did some presentations in the past and the people has to stand 20 minutes of confusion until they understand and this is too long. So we need assistance by looking for the first hook complexity. We can deal like this. That's not the problem.

00:48:30

Will Dragon: Yeah, I agree.

00:48:32

Andreas Fauler: I think, I think suggestions are exactly in that direction, Frank. So you have a Persona, you bring them on a journey and at the end there's some low hanging or some easy conversion first and then probably you get. If you are. If we talk to them then we can come up with more complex things. But probably not in the. On the website initially. Yeah, makes sense.

00:48:58

Will Dragon: And I think it's also like a psychological thing.

00:49:01

Andy Bittner: If you have a low hanging fruit and then you have a more expensive like in between thing, people are more likely to buy the middle product. If you have a cheap and a high price product compared to you only have one product or you only have two products because if you have one it's tough, if you have two, it's easier but like 90 will go with the cheap one. If you really have three products or more, it's so much more likely that people are take something in the middle or I mean you also have some guys who go with the cheap one but that's fine because then they are in your consistent. And you can still.

00:49:36

Andreas Fauler: This is a funny thing or a funny thing. Let's say of course if you sell a training to an organization, it's not a one person decision, it's a complex decision process and then price is not. So I would say if the value is big, the price can also be big. But it's a complex process.

00:49:55

Andy Bittner: It has to.

00:49:56

Andreas Fauler: As you say, we have also the consumers, we have sellers that say I want to become better and I pay for it on my own and this is for them. I guess it's absolutely what you say. For example, the assessment could cost I would say €100. Yeah, why not? So and if somebody's really interested, probably they say I pay the €100 and then I look into it more deeply. Yeah.

00:50:23

Andy Bittner: And I think you always have different buyer Personas. Like it's not only one buyer Persona you have for your product or for your service or sometimes it's two or three, just as you told. Like maybe it's a single person who needs it but. Or maybe it's really a company who needs it for like multiple people. So you can. Like there are so many services and software in the Internet where you always have this one plan that's individual. So a company could always. I mean that's just one idea. It's not like we have to do it like that, but that's like one idea that comes to my mind or you just build totally different landing pages which is also an also possibility. You can like if they're really. If your buyer Personas are so much different then you could also just create two different things.

00:51:03

Andy Bittner: Or you just have one landing page, the homepage and then you filter them to each respective page where they get into the details all the information they need for their customer journey.

00:51:14

Will Dragon: Yeah, I was going to just going to say that I think your. Your point earlier Andy, about finalizing, you know who we're talking to and understanding the customer journey is really important because like we've just established, you know you could be talking to someone who's a corporate representative who would be happy to pay €10,000 or whatever for a sales plan or you've got the individual or you've got a small business owner etc. So I think there's. There's an understanding of who's going to be looking at this and. And finalizing the customer journeys around that.

00:51:51

Frank Kuhnecke: So no, it doesn't matter. I rubbed you. I think we can easily create five Personas who are totally different. You have to a person who is driven by human growth. He want to learn, you want to get better. That's one you have people who needs an idea for selling to. You have managers. I have to develop my person. You have high stake person. As we need a new strategy for selling. So it could at least we can create five.

00:52:34

Andy Bittner: Questions too many. We have to narrow them down.

00:52:37

Will Dragon: So we have like three to five.

00:52:40

Andy Bittner: Is I think the amount you want to.

00:52:42

Andreas Fauler: And what are the main targets. And this is something we are still playing around. I would say we have two groups. One is an enterprise representative and there it can be a founder or professional sales manager or sales leader, chief sales officer. And then you have the individuals and there you probably have. Yeah probably it's only one individual. And you say if I pay on my own that of course you have the more experienced ones in the universe. Which is slightly different from the training but probably not from the journey. I'm not sure. So probably some things so but it's probably the. These are the main differentiations from my perspective. And some Persona does differ in the delivery and others also in the sales funnel. But just let's figure it out.

00:53:38

Frank Kuhnecke: The model exists since at least 15 years. Not in the end way but nearly this and it was for me it was always awful to sell. I got Microsoft, I got from the idea they asked communication training and I says yeah, selling bad messages and this was a hook and then we can develop the rest. And for Ferrero, for example, it was a dear. They always feel like in a fight club. So we do it in the training. So yeah, we need any ideas and we have to concentrate perhaps on two or three Personas. We can't get them all, I'm sure.

00:54:29

Will Dragon: Yeah, I think that's a good idea. One of the things to maybe focus on is what your USP is against your competitors. Because I think, you know, for me the spot, the idea of the sparring and that kind of training, you know, it's. It's you to kind of like let us know as well what are the kind of key focal points that differentiate what you're doing as opposed to what you're, you know, the other people are kind of doing. So, you know, the. What the competition are doing rather. So it's just about, you know, again having a think around that, how that can feature on the website and then how that is something that will make you stand out against what everyone else is doing. So, you know, and I definitely think that the kind of.

00:55:14

Will Dragon: The whole kung fu and the fact that the sparring and all that kind of stuff is really interesting and that what you spoke about earlier, Frank, around the training people to kind of answer questions that are difficult, you know, that there's something that is quite unique in what you're doing. So it's just having those kind of things as well that we need to kind of focus on. I think in the initial kind of communication with anyone that's looking because that's what's going to kind of pique the interest as opposed to how the plan and the structure of everything works. Because that probably runs to a kind of formula that, you know, maybe a few other people are doing it already. So it's just that it's. Yeah, it's. It's kind of. There's a few things that we just need to kind of hone in on.

00:56:03

Will Dragon: What is that initial hook and what are we baiting that with?

00:56:09

Andreas Fauler: Yeah, I would say you touched on. And Frank, you also told it yesterday or so to me. For me, in the meantime, it's nearly. If you want to work six months hard on your sales skills, go on the sales kung fu path. If you want to go to a training and look for a one trick pony, go to somewhere else. Probably it's really this simple. But some other things too. But this could be one version. Yeah, we are now at.

00:56:51

Andy Bittner: Yeah, but that's it. I think this could be the path you have to follow to like build the whole Strategy out. So the sparing part together with the kung fu is like fitting so well. And then you can put it into like this long term course that you have. And then on top you have like the higher priced Fight Club or something that's like the inner circle. We only like the VIPs can get in there. Yeah, they get like constantly consulting or like training or whatever with you and let you know like a WhatsApp group or a telegram group or whatever where you have like they can message you all day but it has the price, you know, of being able to message you all day. And then Fight Club is a really nice name for that.

00:57:35

Andy Bittner: And then you have the other courses where they are like either online or they are also in person or like, I mean video or online in person. And then like it's about if it's somebody in a company, it's just the amount of licenses or seats that they need. So we can like talk to the more or less same Persona or buy a Persona with the same journey. It's just in the end they need like an individual offer or something. Because if they say okay, we need like 20 trainings then they are probably because they also like selling and stuff. They are like, hey, if it's 20, we're not gonna pay 20 times the price. You have to give us a discount or something. You know, that will be the path we have to go.

00:58:18

Andreas Fauler: Right.

00:58:19

James Redenbaugh: I, I think it's going to be important to initially keep it as simple as possible to start getting people in the door, start getting experience, start getting feedback, start getting testimonials and success stories. Because the product will be most successful when there's alive people doing the practice. When you have, you know, videos of people talking about how it's worked for them. When you have, you know, companies that are saying what it did for their sales team and things like that. And all of that stuff is built up over time. You know, how matter, no matter how well we design it up front, you're going to have to start getting, you know, the first person in the door and then they're going to bring a ton of that value in the form of testimonials and feedback that'll help you refine the product.

00:59:21

James Redenbaugh: So I think the initial offering is really crucial. But the overall kind of setting the tone and planting the flag of who you guys are, what you're standing for is maybe even more important because you're at this very early phase. You're beginning conversations with Potential future students, potential corporate clients. And I'm sure the. The, you know, many unexpected things will evolve down the road. So, yeah, I'd love to help you guys kick it off in a really powerful and clean way. I think there's a ton of great ideas here about what can become. And we should, you know, map out those possibilities and then see, like, what's the simplest MVP to start with. But the MVP framing isn't even the most helpful because the first product, I think it doesn't matter if it's successful or not. I think that it. It.

01:00:34

James Redenbaugh: Or financially, I guess I think that it's more important that you guys are starting to get people in the conversation, in the door, in the dojo and growing with you.

01:00:54

Frank Kuhnecke: We are in contact works mostly. And I. I think for. For the working process. If you can ask very easy question, we have to answer and the result is a good story, that would help because I think we both are blind. We discussed so much, and we are always going into the complexity.

01:01:31

Andreas Fauler: I think we already have some elements.

01:01:33

Andy Bittner: Yeah.

01:01:33

Will Dragon: We have to make.

01:01:34

Andreas Fauler: Yeah. Let's continue with this path. I'm very happy about the structure all of you bring to the table. Of course, it will first be also bigger. And then probably we have to narrow it a little bit down for the first version. But I like the direction. I like the whole conversation today, to be honest. Or what do you think, Frank? I mean, there are a lot of ideas or directions that make sense to me. So we will not present our whole beauty on the website. We will connect with the people where they are and bring them from where they are to the lower entry.

01:02:11

Frank Kuhnecke: Yeah. I'm not sure whether I understood what all the suggestions are. Yeah. If I try to repeat. First is we need a hook who is impressive. And then I remember you said the fight club is good. The analogy to Kung Fu is good. And intensive training.

01:02:38

Andy Bittner: Yeah.

01:02:39

Frank Kuhnecke: Sparing program. That's good. And we need us as person that we fit directly to this. And we need a. A promise. I can't. I can't formulate. But we need this understood. This is what I understood.

01:03:04

Andreas Fauler: And the journey and the Persona. So you have different Personas that you presented slightly differently. But I would say that's the essence. Yeah.

01:03:12

Frank Kuhnecke: Let's reduce to one or two Personas. If I understand it right.

01:03:17

James Redenbaugh: No.

01:03:18

Frank Kuhnecke: Yeah.

01:03:18

Andy Bittner: Like as low number as you can get. Like, if it's one, it's fine. If it's two, it's great. And then it's like getting difficult. Like, I think 3, 4, 5, is getting hard and it's making it hard.

01:03:31

Will Dragon: And I think confusing. Sometimes the customer journey is going to be really important as well. Just around what your expectations are of someone, one, who's looking at the site and two, what you want them to take away. And then we have to fulfill that understanding for them to be able to base a decision on what they've seen. So whether it's a, a corporate representative or whether it's an individual, we have to kind of tailor the information that we give them so that they both can understand that there is something in there for them. And then how that package is then, sorry, how that training is then packaged to suit their needs. So it's.

01:04:20

Will Dragon: Yeah, I think that's going to be fundamental because they need to be able to make a decision based on what they've seen, that it suits their needs and that they want to carry it on forward. And then the next thing for them to do would be to then fill in, you know, an email support form or whatever it might be so that they can then get more information and whatever, a callback or, you know, so that's how we kind of want to start to get people and buy people in. So it's really important that there's enough there that one, we don't confuse them and two, they've got enough information to make a decision to then take it forward or to take it onto their boss to say I've seen this, you know, so it the decision maker that can then make a decision.

01:05:06

Andy Bittner: Yeah, yeah, that's a perfect summary I think.

01:05:11

Andreas Fauler: Entry drug. We need an entry drug.

01:05:14

Andy Bittner: Yeah, we have to convince them but we also don't have. We have to make sure they are not overwhelmed because like all the information you just showed us, it's kind of overwhelming. It was a lot of stuff. I mean I understand it but it's still a lot of stuff. If you could just throw that at me as like a prospect who is just coming on your website, I'll be overwhelmed for sure. So we have to make it like easy chewable or how to say like make it like easy understandable without throwing numbers and stuff maybe at them. I mean like yeah, 16 skills sounds awesome and like six, two bases and four gates sounds incredible. But in the end I don't understand anything of that.

01:05:49

Andy Bittner: Like if it's too complex, you know, we have to like make it as easy understandable as possible but convincing.

01:05:58

Andreas Fauler: Frank, were right.

01:06:01

Frank Kuhnecke: These guys confused but they help us.

01:06:05

Andreas Fauler: It's already now better than before.

01:06:10

Will Dragon: So we can Definitely. We can definitely help to. To kind of. It's just. It's just. It's just. It's just finding that language that simplifies it and gets across what it is you're offering and why it's different and why it's going to help someone to become a better salesperson or help their team to become better salespeople. So you've got everything there. It's just a matter of simplifying and trying to make it as approachable, you know, as. As possible at the moment.

01:06:44

Frank Kuhnecke: Would it help if we try to develop three very short one pages, not total page, where we try to. To create a short explanation three different ways and you decide would it. Would it hook for you or would it catch interest? Would it help to create something based on the Personas?

01:07:12

James Redenbaugh: Frank?

01:07:13

Andreas Fauler: Let's. Let's think about which are the Personas and then do it persona, I would say, or the customer journey persona on the side as we think it makes sense.

01:07:24

Andy Bittner: Yeah, that would definitely differentiate.

01:07:27

Frank Kuhnecke: So our job, our next job is two Personas and for everyone, a very short promise. What we are doing without any complex information.

01:07:41

Andy Bittner: Yeah. And your ideal maybe customer journey. If you can map it already with our. Without our help. Maybe you need our help, but maybe you can like think about it already. What, like, what are they doing? Like step by step or like, how are you helping them? You know, not like, oh, where are they coming from? What are they doing? But like what you said, what's your promise? And what's like the journey they're gonna make with your help.

01:08:05

Frank Kuhnecke: I did some design thinking processes for customer, but it's much easier if you don't understand the product to do it. Way of working is fine. The way of working. I understand we can try.

01:08:25

Andreas Fauler: But that's exactly. I think the last question probably for today. How do we move on what. What next steps would be look for? I mean, we have some food for thought already, but I guess it will be a journey with you. So I would say there will be a lot of more of this kind of interactions.

01:08:50

Andy Bittner: I think we should meet again when you have like your Personas and like your promise. And then we can think, maybe think about the sitemap already. But like, first of all, we have to finalize the customer journey. I think that's something where you also need help from us because you don't know all the entry points that they might have. And we have to talk about that. Then we can talk like first of all, I think a sitemap because you just have to know, is it just a landing page? Do we need subpages, is it, do we don't need sub pages or like inner pages? And then from there we can go and say, okay, if we only have one landing page, for example, we can outline a rough structure for the page and then also for the inner pages.

01:09:31

Andy Bittner: And then from there you can go into the design and the other parts and like wherever everybody goes. But we also should like keep in touch everybody like at least designer and developer so we know what's doable, what's not doable. So we don't get on some out of scope things.

01:09:49

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, so I have a, a canvas in my head or a sketch of possible timeline with these different points along the way that we have to meet. So I can share that with everybody including. I tend to think of projects like this in four phases where we start with strategy and vision, we get into story and content and then design and then development. I think all three of us have, and our teams have things that we could contribute in each of those four domains. And I think we'll be most effective and efficient if we divide and conquer in some ways and team up and collaborate at key points as well.

01:10:51

James Redenbaugh: So we can avoid too many cooks in the kitchen when needed but also make sure that, you know, we leverage as much of our each of our unique perspectives and skill sets along the way. So I think it'd be helpful to have a kind of two dimensional, three dimensional canvas and layout. Everything will need to get done from here to a launched develop website and then see, you know, what kind of circles do we want to draw around those points and you know, what kind of path do we want to chart through that territory and then we can see who needs to be where. But I think in this initial stage it's great that all three of us are here and holding this together and seeing it from different perspectives.

01:11:58

James Redenbaugh: You know, more eyes the better at this point and I want to make sure that we can, you know, move towards a powerful end result all every step of the way.

01:12:16

Andreas Fauler: Sounds good.

01:12:18

James Redenbaugh: Cool.

01:12:19

Andy Bittner: Sounds perfect.

01:12:20

Will Dragon: Good.

01:12:22

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. So I think I'll just, I'll share at some point in the next few days, high level sketch of those points. Maybe I'll do it in Figma or Miro or something where we can collaborate on it, add notes, comments and then also start to see the scope breakdown and then we can take it from there.

01:12:50

Will Dragon: Sounds good, sounds great.

01:12:52

Andreas Fauler: And I would say the early stages I have not a problem if we have that many people in a call. I would say if the packages are clear, we can divide. But I would say the creative early strategy vision, probably story work, let's do it rather together than divide. Of course we have to agree to something and it's more expensive if we have a lot of meetings with all of us. But I would say in the later stages when we. When we. When we create, probably it's anyhow divided, but let's see how we solve out, how we collaborate. I mean, in this form, we have never collaborated, so I think it's a little bit of a experiment on that level. But everybody of us has done some project, so looking forward, but awesome.

01:13:39

Andreas Fauler: Loved it very much today from all of you, thanks a lot.

01:13:42

Will Dragon: Cool.

01:13:43

James Redenbaugh: Great.

01:13:45

Will Dragon: Well, it's good to meet you, James. Good to meet you. Andy and Frank.

01:13:51

James Redenbaugh: Will. Yeah. Will, do you have a website?

01:13:56

Will Dragon: Not a personal one, no. So not anything I want to share with you.

01:14:05

James Redenbaugh: Love to see more of your work at some point.

01:14:08

Will Dragon: Yeah, there's a. There's. Yeah, it depends what you want to look, what you're looking for. There's. There's all sorts of stuff on the online that I'm affiliated with.

01:14:16

Andreas Fauler: So you can share some of your works. Probably.

01:14:19

Will Dragon: Yeah, maybe I'll share some works at some point. Yeah.

01:14:23

James Redenbaugh: Great.

01:14:23

Andreas Fauler: Some.

01:14:26

Will Dragon: Yeah.

01:14:28

Andreas Fauler: No.

01:14:28

James Redenbaugh: Okay, guys, good to be with you all.

01:14:31

Andreas Fauler: Thanks. Have a good trip. James.

01:14:33

James Redenbaugh: Thank you.

01:14:33

Andreas Fauler: Thanks, everybody.

01:14:34

Will Dragon: Yeah, see you soon.

01:14:36

James Redenbaugh: Ciao.

01:14:37

Andy Bittner: See you soon, guys.

‍