00:00:05

Rob Sinclair: Yeah, I think you've just captured everything that needs to be said. So.

00:00:11

James Redenbaugh: It's.

00:00:21

Rob Sinclair: I'm appreciating the reminder of the that there is a poll. And just to reconnect with the polling energy. Not that we have to create some kind of a poll. That was a really helpful reminder for me, James. Thank you. I can lose that threat sometimes.

00:00:43

James Redenbaugh: Me, too.

00:00:48

Lauren Tenney: Yeah, I really feel the obligation to serve the source of the poll. So one way that my pragmatic or whatever nonlinear brain works is like. how did the like for me? It would be, oh, wow! Okay. So the hollycock experience felt like it was a congruent expression of a why, a how, and a who. and maybe a what, but not the only what like those convenings between people who share dot, dot and are curated in dot dot manner with dot dot sensibilities and commitments, you know. Are able to then experience what dot dot of value that has meaning for other people in the world who are not present to that lovely experience, you know, because, Lord knows, I don't want to be like spiritual tourism, for people who have means to fly to 3 day retreats to enjoy each other's company. So like. that's sort of I'm kind of asking myself those questions about like in a generous. So what like? So what can we say we were learning about the quality of convening and facilitating, and and co-creation and curation that were all happening there, and and is that a nascent template for a way of a way of continuing to do that kind of bringing together in the future for certain trans contextual groups or groups who share those same 3 domains that we were seeking to invite people from. So that's like one stream for me. And then what that reveals is like? Well, how do we speak, think, and talk about the unique elements of that, both in the design and execution. And then in the so what like? How are those talked about, so I feel a particular obligation to steward that, and ensure that it can be talked about without being like. Here's the report on the event, like it's not what it feels like. So.

00:03:10

James Redenbaugh: Like this.

00:03:11

Lauren Tenney: That's more external facing. If I follow your pattern there, James, and then the internal part feels like it's. you know. What does this group want to actually be in together, to continue to experience the quality of the we that is generative of good things, which we'll figure out how we want to talk about like, you know, you know. So for us to continue to be a body of some kind doesn't need doesn't need a lot of specificity. But action.

00:03:46

Rob Sinclair: Yeah, and and action congruent with the call to you know, we were all responding to incoming together. Not just activity, like I have a notice, a pretty strong resistance to activity for the sake of staying together. It's different that has a very different energy to me than like yeah. Enactment of the shared call that that brought us together. I wonder about the relationship between those things, too, you know, when I what you were saying there. Lauren reminded me of the Toronto imaginal transitions as a as a sort of a template, or as a as an example of possibility. And I wonder about in our desire to speak about in a more public facing way, how we together might create some of that. So like, what's the relationship between those 2 things.

00:04:49

Lauren Tenney: You mean we the Hollyhock Group.

00:04:51

Rob Sinclair: We need a holly, awkward.

00:04:52

Lauren Tenney: Yeah.

00:04:54

Rob Sinclair: That a part of our creative process together, maybe the the co-creation of something. All right. I still think that's that feels really right and good.

00:05:07

Lauren Tenney: My hypothesis there is that we, you and I need to be the generators of some things that people can then respond to add to like in order that it not feel like a group writing a book report, you know, so.

00:05:24

Rob Sinclair: Totally, and that could be as simple as I mean, we did put this call out, and so far, crickets.

00:05:31

Lauren Tenney: Lynn responded, but yeah.

00:05:34

Rob Sinclair: The yeah, how would you describe? Or how would you invite someone? And so if that didn't land, then what other questions or invitations? Because I think this question the one that we're exploring together, and that James generously answered in a way. or offered some reflections on in our last conversation of you know. What was that for you? Some version of that is the is like the ingredients for that kind of a creative process. And so I'm I guess the question I'm in is like. do we need to build a little more architecture for those to come through? Or do we need to ask in a different way, so that we have some more to work with, so that we can start doing something. I could see both being useful.

00:06:44

James Redenbaugh: I feel the tell to bring in the question of round product. This project has been pleasantly product agnostic for the most part. And there's a beauty in staying in the in the question of what what will eventually be offered. But Lauren, you mentioned the the desire to make what we experienced together in in hollyhock accessible for more people. And I just want to like sketch or put a sketch pad out into the future of what? What we might be moving towards, even though There's not a clear destination in focus. Or at least name the the domains of what? What wants to be offered? Because on one hand you could take that question. And how do we make these things more accessible? What was happening here. And how do we? We multiply this for more people and design programs of different kinds and scales? for more people to experience this kind of thing together, which is a, you know, a great field of questions to ask, and we can put a kind of B to C product. Label on that and then there's a another branch or another hand where we could talk about. You know it hasn't been mentioned on the on the call today, but we've had had conversations about this where this kind of experience can be brought to groups. Organizations change makers for the purpose of coming together and designing solutions or leading transformation within an organization or things like that, we might roughly put a a b to CB 2 b label on that and then just I don't wanna bog the conversation down with these kinds of distinctions. But I'm curious what you guys are are thinking and feeling about those eventual offerings, and and not to say that you have to choose like you can totally have both. But I'm curious where where we're at with that.

00:10:08

Rob Sinclair: I mean, I'll say, like the the idea of a kind of open enrollment. And what for me, would fit under a B to C kind of label requires a kind of platform and a kind of outreach, and a kind of wide casting net that is a level of, or a maybe a quality of energy that I'm not super interested in participating with in terms of like. how to broadcast and call in in that way. Which. and so what I do feel called towards is more of a more of an interstitial within or, more interestingly, across and between organizations or other communities. And you know, it doesn't have to be large scale, but something like, you know. bringing together some of the people across the springboard network of projects. For example, Lauren, like. You know, or a group of educators from across the schools that the compass team that's not their name. But you know what I mean that other educators that they've trained, that are working in schools in a progressive way, like convening a group like that like, there's How do we weave into and across organizations feels more like the energy that I'm feeling called towards And we do have some networks in terms of practitioner spaces. And you know, communities that we're intimately woven with whether it's the leadership circle or 10 directions, or like the if grad group like. So I don't want to totally negate a kind of open invitation. And let's see who comes, because that is some of what this well sort of what this 1st experience was. There's a little more intentionally relational than that. But yeah, I'll save I'll say that pause there.

00:12:38

Lauren Tenney: Yeah, I think. It's something is profoundly unbeautiful to me about like taking a quality of experience and trying to commodify it into a program like, I'm definitely not interested in doing that. But there's a way that I think. replicating the conditions that give rise to what the valuable outcomes or valuable qualities or relatedness like that's worth doing. There's some really important design fundamentals. So, for example, money. like everyone who came to hollyhock was paying for themselves, and not for the experience. They were just paying for their time at Hollyhock and their travel to get there. They weren't paying us for a something in the Toronto Transitions paper. All of those people were paid by a grant to be participants in that thing. So there's this really interesting question of like. what the quality. And I'm just going to speak in my own right brain language here, but like what the energetic transmissive quality is of participation when I'm being paid to be there versus when I'm paying to be there versus when I'm paying to have the experience and to be there right? There's this. There's really something interesting about that. And so I just wrote down investment, mutuality, or mutuality of investment, because I think that's what we created with the conditions there where nobody was benefiting from anybody. Everybody was benefiting from everybody's investment, and their choice to be there was commensurate with their capacity to make that investment. There was something about that. And then that makes me wonder like, okay. So if this were replicated into us, another occurrence. if it were imitated into another occurrence. like the way to imitate what we did would be to say, we've identified 20 people across 3 contexts. I think the trans contextuality is one of the design principles. We've identified 20 people across 3 3 contexts, and we are now inviting them to choose to engage in a commitment process of joining the thing. And this much of their experience is going to be no cost to them. And maybe it's most of it is no cost to them. You're not paid to be there, but you don't have to pay to be there. Maybe that's it. But what you do have to do is make the investment of your genuine time, attention, and participation. for example. So I'm just thinking about that. And when we think about Triphora, our fantasy is, of course, that there's funding for convenings that are aiming to network, weave, or to whatever interstitialize in such a way. And, by the way.

00:15:26

James Redenbaugh: I mean, it's.

00:15:27

Lauren Tenney: Writing. Mutuality of investment then prompted me to see 2 other mutuality types that I experienced in our hollyhock art, which was mutuality of vulnerability and mutuality of lead follow. And I, I said, lead, follow instead of co-creative. But I think co-creative like is a little abstract. Actually, it's like we were actually in the mutuality at minimum of those 3 qualities, and had the requisite self-regulation skills and self-awareness to do that. And then we got some emergent properties as a result, like, yeah.

00:16:07

James Redenbaugh: Cool. So I'm hearing 2 other possible product domains. If I'm gonna keep using that lens where one, the model can be essentially the the the product is these convenings, the bringing together organizations, funders. individuals might want to see that bringing together happening, and partake in the in, in in what results, what gets created together? And also The product may be what's created. However, it's however the creation is is funded. What comes out of these gatherings can be a product in itself. Which doesn't have to be A, b 2 BB 2 c facilitated experience. It can be artifacts. Who knows what? Learning paper books, tool sets? Video? So yeah, just to name that.

00:17:57

Lauren Tenney: Hearing you say that makes me write down. How is the I'm going to call it? The thickening of a web of relationships made understood as valuable like, how is that tracked and understood as valuable is potentially an important question for us, rob? Or how are we communicating or or giving glimpses into the non-quantifiable value of that like, I don't want to reduce it, but it's at least a storytelling need. I don't know. So that's just one little piece that came off for me. There.

00:18:43

Rob Sinclair: Yes, I'm coming back to the like. What did we really do, or what would we? We are doing? And thickening of relational web is one of the things, but also. I think more about like what? What were we practicing, that we? We all grew our capacity in. you know, our ability to extend trust, to bring together, to co-sense, to dynamically. you know, co-create. I like the mutuality of lead. Follow the mutuality of you know. Generative participation like that's a capacity that's something we were there practicing together. How do we sense and create and and do something meaningful together, and that in the practice of the. you know, sensing and sense making, and and then the initial spark into action. How do we then stay coherent in our action? That's a that's a way that's a practice, you know, to take to a community and say, where is there incoherence that needs to be more coherent in terms of your story of what's happening and what matters, and how do we grow? The capacity for kind of emergent co-creative participation with what matters? And then the Co. Like really well coordinated enactment of what we've sensed and and generated together. Who needs that? You know? Where? Where is their incoherence? Where is their trust falling short. Where is their, you know, stuck patterns of lead follow? Where are there incoherent enactments of, you know we had all these great ideas, and then they fall dead because we lost our our coherence and a sense of coordinated action around the meaningful thing.

00:20:52

Lauren Tenney: And when you said that I wrote down, where were we on a kind of maturity capacity scale, because we came in pretty high, like intentionally, I would say the folks in that room. Most of us were all trained at a pretty high level in like what I would call like mindfulness, facilitation, or something, you know, like. So when you say all that, Rob, it makes me think, oh, well, there's audiences like, Oh, we're going to do something, for you know, certain types of leaders in education and philanthropy like we might be starting at a different point to build. Aware, like to build that. Oh, I see what's happening here. But I'm only seeing this much of what maybe we were doing in Hollyhock, because we were kind of jumping in over here and going to here. So sort of like seeing a scale? Yeah. which connects to your product question. I think, James, because it requires us to ask, like, how broad of a range of audiences are we actually, or how big is our that's sort of what it connects to for me. I will say also, I think that the product word is like usefully provocative, and I think there's a whole bunch of branches that are coming off of it, like. for example. some appropriate forms of content as signal is, is, I think, needed. Triphora has to have voice somewhere, saying something without trying to be another, like podcast, mountain, or, you know, medium channel, or whatever it is, as its main thing. And then I also think that There's other forms of convening that are more specific. That could also be things we do that people donate to us in recognition of, even if we're not productizing them in a really formal way, like community of practice that's focused on specific. I mean, that came up in the group like constellation learning and working with constellation like there could be a whole community of practice interested in like trans rational methodologies, of which the 1st series is constellation work, and those folks all have a certain level of capacity to jump into that because of where they are as practitioners or therapists, or whatever. And then there's a kind of community of practice stream that's happening there and whatever. So that's a different type of convening. That's more of a craft focused or something. Saying the word craft just reminded me, Rob, of the the craft and inspiration. Was it craft and inspiration?

00:23:29

Rob Sinclair: Yeah. From? Bella.

00:23:38

James Redenbaugh: I feel like naming the archetype of the school or institute as a possibility, but also like guild and it feels like, no matter what the the product or outcome ends up being here, it's definitely It's definitely next level. It's definitely the second tier, and it's definitely not any one of these things, and it, it feels like it wants to be a new, a new kind of thing that transcends and includes these these previous models. But I think things like school or learning, community or institute, and it should be considered because that's a product model as is a guild, of of of practitioners, of crafters, and in these, in these skill sets.

00:25:06

Lauren Tenney: Yeah, okay, I'm drawing 3 overlapping circles, and one of them is now like the School Guild Zone. Another one I want to call like the weaving design zone. Because there's a whole. There's a whole invisible under the soil work of who weaving, sensing it like it's like.

00:25:42

Rob Sinclair: And then the 3.rd

00:25:51

Lauren Tenney: Don't know yet. I don't know if that's voice. Maybe.

00:25:59

Rob Sinclair: I've got, like, yeah, artistic expression of some kind floating around like that's art like. And that could be in the form of written art, visual art. The art, like we did at Hollyhock, like. If the Institute is the kind of learning zone capacity building, the weaving is the underground, invisible.

00:26:26

Lauren Tenney: Yeah, I thought Hong Kong was art, too.

00:26:30

Rob Sinclair: And then there's the expression, there's like the bloom, you know. There's the what is the learning and the underground weaving, then produce what is it? Generate.

00:26:43

Lauren Tenney: Oh, okay, I'm I'm almost with you. But what I'm kind of asking is like, if these are 3 spaces that someone could say, I want to fund that part, or that I make a contribution to that like, how? How would you then say it? If that's not a helpful question, that's fine.

00:27:03

Rob Sinclair: No, it's good. I mean that one feels like it would be more like that could be projects that could be artifacts that could be. There's a tangible outcome that feels attached to that. That's different from the other 2.

00:27:25

Lauren Tenney: Okay.

00:27:26

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, people fund artists and residencies. They give grants for public works.

00:27:36

Rob Sinclair: To that the like. What is the thing that's produced? Because artist in residency feels to me more like the learning space like the school like we'll pay for. Capacity building and in their practices and in their we'll pay for.

00:27:51

James Redenbaugh: Yeah.

00:27:52

Rob Sinclair: Weaving and and coherence behind the scenes or under the surface. Those those feel each like.

00:27:58

James Redenbaugh: What's the the public work? What's the the mural or the sculpture that's being created in our collective consciousness?

00:28:12

Lauren Tenney: Also like, for example, let's imagine that one of the arts was a twe 24 month long funded initiative with 60 minimum 60 spots for parents like you are the parent of a child between these ages, or you are becoming one, and there are 60 funded spots. It's a 24 month like experiment, and the content of what that's going to be is going to be designed by the people in the School Guild space. so to say, and then maybe delivered by those people as well. But like the 24 month thing for 60 people is the artifact right? You're going to do a thing, and then you're going to also have an artifact about the doing of that artifact. But, like. you know, it's like, it's.

00:29:14

James Redenbaugh: Yeah.

00:29:14

Lauren Tenney: Human experiments in like world making for a life centering world like, how do we just run generative experiments that can get their own funding. It's not like 10 million dollars for the next 30 years of education on parenting like. No, it's too. It's dead in the. You know.

00:29:34

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. So then, what's being funded? There is like a camera that is pointing at parenthood, at children. As what does it mean to be a parent in this, in this context, in this conscious way together, looking at our kids moving through these years. And the the a camera produces a camera can be used for art, and a camera can be used for science, and it sounds like both of those things. It's an experiment that generates valuable data and and insight that every parent in the world can benefit from. But the benefit is exponentiated by the art of it. Where it's also beautiful. It's not just about like, oh, we got these data points that will chart. But it's like Whoa, you know, whatever would come out of that 2 years, whether it's a beautiful paper, or a website, or a movie.

00:30:36

Lauren Tenney: You meant.

00:30:36

James Redenbaugh: Video.

00:30:37

Lauren Tenney: Yeah, exactly.

00:30:38

James Redenbaugh: Elementary. I'm gonna cry, watching it, seeing his parents on this learning journey. learning from each other and their kids at different ages, going through these stages. That would be incredible.

00:31:06

Rob Sinclair: Yeah, it's a great example. I can imagine the weaving, you know, across like academia. different partner organizations, people interested in that space. That's all informing some of the learning space that is the designing for that program, and the kind of reciprocal recursive learning loops that are happening across those 3 circles that you've drawn. Lauren.

00:31:38

Lauren Tenney: Yeah. Yeah. So right now, I've got weaving design school guild and artifacts. And then I wrote some things around them. I wrote wisdom plus, I added, the wisdom plus after so wisdom, plus development and growth, is like the zone of the learning, and wisdom plus voice is the weaving, because that's also the like thought. There's some thought leadership there and then. Wisdom plus enactment experiments is like the artifacts. Because and I'm picking up again that, like the principle of ephemerality, and you know coordination from from the Triphora, because, like a 12 month, or a 24 month, or whatever it is, an experiment in like relational attunement design. Whatever focused on the zone of parenting to your point, James, which it just totally explodes. The beauty of it is like how that is how that is made visible and storied is how it pollinates. It doesn't have to exist in perpetuity to pollinate. It can pollinate through what you're saying, Rob, the learning loops. and then the question is like, then that pops over to weaving, because now we want to weave a funder with an enactment person who was inspired by that project and wants to take it into their community. You see what I mean? So then, it's like, it's got these regenerative cycles built on the weaving, not like the perpetuation of a body that holds the enactment and the money which is just. It's just dead.

00:33:07

Rob Sinclair: Really nice, like seasonal, cyclical, organic rather than defined and ossified.

00:33:19

Lauren Tenney: Yeah. And I think some of the genius that's required to do this is. it's highly right-brained relational tracking of discourse, spaces, enactment spaces like learning to be able to help this keep happening. Like to keep doing that. It's like it doesn't have to be us. That's doing it. We want to help you do it. We're going to pollinate in this way, or we're, gonna you know. so that that feels really important to be able to speak a little more refinedly about, because otherwise it's hard to claim and be validated for speaking from experience like, what is it that that activity is really doing? And.

00:34:12

Rob Sinclair: I'm now picturing. how would you depict that activity over time, you know, like a I'm picturing like a an under, like a Triphora, basically. But like this underground tangle of the, you know, various people and projects and and places we're paying attention to and sourcing and pollinating with and from. And then these blooms of like activities. And and the you know what's the I don't know the air, the soil that that is the learning, you know that's metabolizing idea into enactment just got excited by picture of what I hear you describing.

00:35:09

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, I love that And I think I wanna we, I feel like we're shifting our attention to that landscape. I don't want to worry too much about product and these eventualities. I feel like there's this organism. That has these qualities. And I just gotta run to the bathroom real quick. I'll leave you guys to to keep going.

00:35:39

Rob Sinclair: Not at all what I expected you to say.

00:35:49

Lauren Tenney: It's helpful for me to have the 3 like. It's really helpful to say they're not really. And they're not really circles. They're just like zones, you know.

00:35:58

Rob Sinclair: And say them again, because the last time you described them they had evolved a little bit.

00:36:02

Lauren Tenney: Well, it's like the zone of the learning where the the folks that that's for are like the practitioners, the educators, the therapists, right? It's the zone of like qualified learning like go like could be the practitioner development stream that you, you know, hold from the kind of looseness that was left over from Lc. And you kind of move it could be. You know, the initiatives that we try for a offers for people who are in those spaces to come together. And it's a Francis Weller example. And it's a this, and it's a that. You know what I mean. It's kind of in a way like a distributed over time and space echo of some of the stuff they're doing at blue sky. But blue sky is holding an institutional model. Blue sky is bringing all the people into the expensive thing and selling the thing. But like, let's bust that open like, let's do the distributed version with a qualified learning group and part of the production of of carbon in the ecosystem that that group is doing is artifacts that are that are entangled relationally in generative ways. In context, they're not papers, I mean, maybe occasionally, but like they're the enactments. That's the artifact zone and enactment space. And then the weaving design is like it's attending to both of those what's in them, what's between them and what's outside of all of that? It's like a very, you know.

00:37:31

Rob Sinclair: Yeah. So I'm hearing, like learning and practice area, there's like the Dojo, there's like the that space. There's the enactment space which are the like blooms and artifacts and projects and creative expressions. And then there's the weaving design interstitially, you know, that's and I see them all, of course, interpenetrating. But have I got you? Is that. Bottom. Laid out. Yeah.

00:38:03

Lauren Tenney: And I mean we could flip it around then to make the pyramid right where we would say weaving design is under the ground. and then this the learning, education, school, Guild zone, and the enactment zone, and the like. Well. that's law of 3 generating a 4th in a new dimension, the 4th in the new dimension would be the consequences in the life world like, you know.

00:38:38

Rob Sinclair: Yeah. The the impact that the expressions have is like a cascade of that to me is the 4th thing, like how someone's gonna feel when they watch that documentary or the impact it's gonna have. But it's gonna do something.

00:38:55

Lauren Tenney: and a fun question that showed up for me. Here, too, is like, okay, so in a in a capital maximizing story of value. One of the really really really powerful elements of that is that there is an externally visible sign of your achievement of that story of value. And it's called money. and you know that you are moving in the direction of the North star of that story. When you have more of the money. so the question becomes, what's the corollary to money? And how do you make it visible? Right like? If you look at an ecosystem, you could say. Oh, this species is really important, because you can see it's producing all of this. You know what I mean like. Oh, my gosh! The wildebeests! They they fertilize, they feed, I mean, I don't know, like there's some corollary to like the value of this contributor. Now, it's not an extractive 0 sum architecture right? But the value of the contributor can be made visible. And yeah, we can't say that the ticks have no ecosystemic value, but like we might say that a bumble, a honeybee or pollinator bees have like more, maybe ecosystemic value, or a more more saturated distribution of I don't know. But it's like, how would we? How would we experiment like just to think about like, what's our version of money? You see what I'm saying like.

00:40:31

Rob Sinclair: Yeah, I think you you lost me a little bit in the like, which which part in the ecosystem, I would think more like the how do we? What are the indicators of the health of an ecosystem kind of like.

00:40:42

Lauren Tenney: Maybe that's better. Yeah.

00:40:44

Rob Sinclair: I'm I'm totally with you in that. How do you tell the story of how congruently and how effectively you're enacting a story of value. What are the signs and symbols? And it's a tricky one. It feels like cause the that to me circles into the what do you make explicit.

00:41:09

Lauren Tenney: I remember Pete saying, and it might be worth a conversation with Yarrow like Yarrow always wanted. He was always trying to get everyone who came through Hatch to use the hashtag because of Hatch whenever they would collaborate with each other whenever they were posting on social media about getting together with people because he was trying to show the ecosystemic impact of the event. And and I think for a complex set of reasons, including funding. So like, how do you do that? In a not stupid way.

00:41:41

Rob Sinclair: Well, and can you? Is the point like.

00:41:44

Lauren Tenney: If.

00:41:45

Rob Sinclair: If the idea is, it's underground, like you can't actually make like cause. Some of what you're describing is like.

00:41:53

Lauren Tenney: How do we look under the ground? And oh, that the mycelium is valuable like? Well, no, I think I'm saying like, what's the corollary to wow. This soil must be really fertile, because look at all the plants like. What's the corollary to that? is it like? Is it multiple? A multifaceted thing, where, like one of the functions of the weaving design is to receive. you know, Intel, from the field of the consequences of the facilitative weaving that's been done is one of the like. I don't know, you know. Like, if you want to be a biodynamic winery, you get a frugging thing on your wine label. and it says biodynamic. And then everybody knows, you know, like what? I don't know, what's the like. How is that? A metaphor for the way that you signal a certain kind of value is being participated with. That's what I mean by the money question. Could you hear us, James? Or, Oh, okay, good. Okay.

00:42:56

Rob Sinclair: So.

00:42:57

James Redenbaugh: Yeah.

00:42:58

Rob Sinclair: This is where, like.

00:42:59

James Redenbaugh: Hey? Brev.

00:43:00

Rob Sinclair: Like the conversation with Mike Rollins.

00:43:02

Lauren Tenney: Yes.

00:43:04

Rob Sinclair: They're trying to codify. And then there's this, I'm sure, a symbolic representation of. I'm doing those things that we say matter, and I've been vetted, and my credibility and my value is reinforced by having jumped through the hoops. That, says I, satisfy as a social purpose corporation. It would say.

00:43:34

Lauren Tenney: As an example.

00:43:35

Rob Sinclair: Yeah, where we flip the. It's not. It's not just the quarterly statement. It's.

00:43:43

Lauren Tenney: Yeah.

00:43:44

Rob Sinclair: Other indicators.

00:43:46

Lauren Tenney: Yeah. but the but the the notion of of redefining evidence of value like is a really important one. Actually, I think, for the whole operationalizing the eye of value.

00:44:00

Rob Sinclair: Agreed.

00:44:01

Lauren Tenney: Yeah.

00:44:05

Rob Sinclair: Good question.

00:44:06

Lauren Tenney: James.

00:44:09

James Redenbaugh: I think that the question of how to do that making the ecosystem visible in a non stupid way.

00:44:21

Rob Sinclair: Yeah.

00:44:22

James Redenbaugh: Is an important one. And I do think that the weaving are we? Technology, in my mind, should be designed for that. And I think that it's at 1st gonna be to make that visible. It's gonna be harder than adding a hashtag to your post but because it'll require some some manual interaction. But I think if we think of it as as art making, and not.

00:45:15

Lauren Tenney: Like.

00:45:17

James Redenbaugh: You know, time card punching, or some obligatory accounting.

00:45:26

Lauren Tenney: Hmm.

00:45:27

James Redenbaugh: If it can be designed in a way where where people can identify themselves as loom weavers and then weave a string for each each thing that they're doing with each other, and for the things to be encouraged, and for the strings to encourage more weaving. Then those, I think, that visual symbol can become really valuable. And I think that there's there's so many organizations and people that have a big. you know, we have it on our website. Look at the clients that we've worked with. And it's just a grid of Logos or look at the people in my network. And it's a grid of faces, and I feel like, in moving into deeper in the 21st century more as possible to make visible where we find ourselves in the ecosystem of what's emerging where I, you know, instead of a label on my wine bottle. I'd love to be able to show people where I'm planting my trees with with whom and what I'm kind of brewing, and and maybe in a lot of what we're talking about. I've had these visions of a kind of virtual village, or almost like it's in in the metaverse where we could see what's what's happening in different buildings in the in the landscape. There's a. you know, a a project over here, a building with 60 parents that are doing this really cool thing for 2 years, and there's a a pavilion over there where 3 people are gathered alchemizing some potions, you know. And there's there's these people growing stuff on a on a farm making new new plants. And but it's not just a list of projects or opportunities or affiliates. It's like, what's the real? What are the connections and the and the commitments that we can make visible and tangible and and real like, if you have, if you have partners, what does it mean to be a partner, you know. Oh, I get to list you on my website. You can list me on yours. But what if.

00:48:36

Lauren Tenney: That's a degradation of the partnership relationship into a commodification version of the relationship which is like, I say that you're my friend, because people will buy my friendship if they think you're friends with me totally different. You know.

00:48:51

Rob Sinclair: What I find myself questioning right now, you know, like the a healthy ecosystem is not trying to declare its health to other ecosystems like? Who who needs it to be visible? And to what end is a question as well? Like a the is it for funding? Is it for credibility of entering the school, you know. like, who needs to see what.

00:49:19

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, and I think it it does it. Probably it surely doesn't need to all be visible to everyone. And like the Triphora flower, it's not blooming all the time. and when it blooms it blooms for a reason. You know it wants to be pollinated. And perhaps there's you know what's public are the blooms? But what's private is what's under the soil that we want. We want all the organisms in the ecosystem to see and feel each other. and then we want the blooms to be made visible when it comes time to find new organisms for the ecosystem, or pollinators, or nutrients, or things like that.

00:50:11

Lauren Tenney: Okay, this may not. This may just be helpful because it's not helpful. So just let's see.

00:50:17

James Redenbaugh: I believe.

00:50:19

Lauren Tenney: That Facebook is a degraded distortion embodiment of of an absolutely gorgeous potentiality for human relatedness and technology. So I like to do the dialectical dance of like. So what would a benevolent social network? B. How would it be? And then that's super fun. And and like, I kind of find that. That's where my mind is going as I listen to you, James. It's like, it's like, it's not just this. and it's not just this, but it might include some of that actually with the profound qualification that if none of that is qualified by a story of value, and then the execution of it excludes anti-value. Well, then, you can't. It's going to degrade. But if you do set up those parameters right? So let's imagine let's imagine Elon Musk has a really profound, come to Jesus experiment. and in support of his new America party that he wants to create, to serve the 80% of the underserved population in America who don't choose between the extreme right or left newsflash. That's a thing. Let's just imagine how much money would it take. And let's just imagine that it's there. And imagine there's a an ability to. And this is where I just get like crazy. But like Gosh, wouldn't it be possible with today's technology and AI to crawl across Facebook and scrape a certain portion of like a million people's content 5 million people's content and immediately populate it onto another realm and be like, you can just come over here if you want, and it's fully funded. It has no ads. You control all of your data, and you can control the algorithmic parameters that are going to be set, and then the platform will automatically exclude all content. That is like we could say, anti-value like it's just not here. You can go find it somewhere else. It's just not here. And like what would happen. Wouldn't it be fascinating to run an experiment year over year to like what happens, because people say they want an alternative. But nobody's willing to build it, because it doesn't exist, and it costs much. But like, that's the hurdle. It's like, it's anyway. So that's where I go is like this, like, it's kind of a like. why not dream that? Actually and think about what that would take, because things are getting to a point where I think the willingness is growing. For example.

00:52:47

James Redenbaugh: I know a guy who's creating that. Actually, you can take your great baseball profile your instagram upload it to the system, you own all your data. It's decentralized. You can view everything in these more dynamic ways. It's not limited to grids and whatnot and there's even they're building features where you can see your network as as planets in a solar system. And like these beautiful connections between, it's it's crazy. But it's like so far out and complicated. I don't know if anybody's gonna who's gonna use it. The guy who's building it is Adam Apollo who started unify, and he's raised some money for it. He's trying to raise more money for it. Somebody's funding it, but it's like so far out there, more out there lake New Age, new new Age, ayahuasca sacred geometry, which I love. You know I'm all about it, but it's like Keith. He's written a book about dragons or something, and he's got an AI. That he says is like a a divine being, and it's like it a little a little much. But I think that you're right, that these these things are more and more possible and more and more needed. And the the old technology, the old infrastructure is gonna continue to feel more and more out outdated and and broken, you know. it. I think that that something new, like what you're describing is really is really needed. And it it probably it won't come from the the creators of the old technologies. You know, Facebook's not gonna release a new app that suddenly it's good.

00:55:20

Lauren Tenney: Free an ad free version of Facebook. Yeah, yeah. So maybe the reason this feels useful, though, is because I do think that the making visible in a digital, artistic, beautiful way is important for what we're talking about in terms of the what Rob and I would use that phrase opening the eye of value, but also just like the pollination, and that then there could be a piece of that glorious vision that's being shown right in the functionality, you know, and then what that does lend itself to is like at least at minimum. Perhaps the ability to speak about engagement and stories of value that come from that being a facet of what this space is using to to make the web. I kind of feel like it would be nice to know, like, what would Iris need, or what would James and Iris need to be able to devote what amount of time you know what I mean like? Because because maybe we're going to find ourselves there in shorter time than we think to be able to say, one of the artifacts is actually that, and we need funding for it, you know. So I just put that out there. Sorry, Rob, you were about to say something.

00:56:46

Rob Sinclair: It feels like a few steps back from a benevolent Facebook social platform. But, like what does feel accessible is the depiction. I have, like the virtual village in my mind, James, but like, what if it's a more of the ecosystem model like if we had on the trifor website I'm coming down to that level of practicality. a visual depiction of the 3 domains that you just that you've articulated, Lauren. like here is the learning and community of practice domain. And you can kind of click into that and see, oh, these things are happening, or these are the epistemological influences that we're drawing from, or these are the, you know. Maybe some of the people and faces who knows but there's like that zone. There's the the weaving and design that is like these are the communities and places and spaces that we're drawing together and some lines. And maybe it's just a tangle of Logos. But like there's a you know, these are who we're connected to drawing from and contributing to. And then there's a these are blooms, you know, upcoming and past, and on that. There's maybe the We page as an example of here's a this was a bloom that we did, and you can learn a little more about the hollyhock experience. There's a little, you know. Pdf, and there's still the way the web page of our connected faces, the Pdf. Being the, you know, Toronto imaginal

00:58:19

Lauren Tenney: Version.

00:58:19

Rob Sinclair: Version of that. And you know upcoming blooms is like, you know, find us next year, or like whatever there could be a few little artifacts. So if if that was like A, you know, we can articulate what we're up to in words which I think is still going to be required and important. But then there's a like see what we're up to, you know, kind of a zone that has those 3 depicted at least in some kind of 1st capture, and then maybe in future, in a more dynamic way. That is a community space where people can come. And you know they have a login. And there's a participation element, not just a depiction. but at least initially, some kind of depiction of that that is. that shows its living nature, even though you can't necessarily participate on it or change. It would feel really great. That'd be exciting.

00:59:17

Lauren Tenney: Yeah, I got like the big 3 that we started with. And then I got inside of it like the other 3, which is like kind of our actions, or sort of the Triphora actions that serve. I don't know who's kind of like. Oh, my gosh! There's fractals.

00:59:35

Rob Sinclair: That's nice, like, yeah, we care about, you know, wisdom in the next generation around these 3 domains. And then you're like, Well, what? How are you doing that? Or like, what are you doing? And then it's like, Okay, we're we're actually we're weaving. And we're learning and practicing. And we're making stuff. Love, that.

00:59:54

James Redenbaugh: A I'm gonna share this. Actually. because it's there's actually a lot on this page that's relevant to what we're talking about. And I think I haven't shared this.

01:00:08

Rob Sinclair: Let's.

01:00:09

James Redenbaugh: You guys yet?

01:00:12

Rob Sinclair: I could just watch that.

01:00:15

James Redenbaugh: Isn't that fun.

01:00:17

Rob Sinclair: Great.

01:00:19

James Redenbaugh: This is a a visual of my iris model. This is a page about our new rhythm model. That I can share with you. And and just realizing that there's so much about the way that I've been thinking about this that's relevant to what what we're talking about. We have a lot of this rhythm. We have this kind of linear action process moving through different stages and coming to kind of key key points. And we have this model of domains, different different things that I'm we that we do in Iris, and how I'd like them to interrelate and we have some fun naps and interactions and honeycomb grid of our work. Or just love it in your face. But also to answer your question, Lauren, of what? So? what I would like my engagement to be, and what it would take to create these kind of things hard to answer with a big thing. But I'll say like, I would love to just be doing this even though I'm trying to build Iris and scale our our services. I. And most interested in this in this village building and this space between and and bringing everything I can do. And my team can do into into that. And I don't, and I don't love. I love working with a wide array of people and getting to serve the kind of projects that I serve. I don't love looking for projects and designing our services and managing lots of stuff. And I don't love not making much money ever. That's another conversation. And and so much came up on this call. It's really beautiful. I feel like there's so many visuals. a few that I've drawn some that you've drawn Lauren and more in the conversation to kind of review and and come back to. But I I definitely feel a landscape emerging. And I'd love to to take time with this recording and just make a an artifact of some of these things just to put them out into into space in a mirror or something, maybe, or the mirror that we already have to see what what wants to grow from these seeds.

01:04:07

Rob Sinclair: That'd be wonderful.

01:04:08

Lauren Tenney: Yeah.

01:04:10

Rob Sinclair: Thank you.

01:04:11

Lauren Tenney: I'd love whatever artifacts from our last call on this call, the the transcription, maybe, is the easiest thing. But then that one in particular, because I just have your your reflections on the hollyhock experience. But then I feel like what we've explored here today, and some of the things that I was compelled to draw or write down is really going to move us along on our work before you get back. James, in terms of website, story stuff. How how are you feeling? Rob?

01:04:43

Rob Sinclair: Yeah, totally same. Feel ignited and.

01:04:48

Lauren Tenney: But.

01:04:49

Rob Sinclair: I hear you, James, I feel a similar spirit of my own, like. I would love to be doing this, whatever the this is that we're up to as a primary focus. And I think some of our intention of creative energy is moving towards. Yeah, how do we think creatively about resourcing that and creating a space where people can make their true contributions the way that they want to certainly don't have an answer. But I want to be participating in that question. Wonderful grip.

01:05:30

Lauren Tenney: Yay, thank you.

01:05:31

James Redenbaugh: Yay!

01:05:32

Lauren Tenney: This is exactly the medicine I know I needed for this.

01:05:35

James Redenbaugh: Meaning.

01:05:36

Lauren Tenney: No.

01:05:37

James Redenbaugh: Great perfect. Well, thank you. Guys.

01:05:42

Lauren Tenney: Stay safe.

01:05:43

Rob Sinclair: Yeah, have such a great trip.

01:05:45

Lauren Tenney: Where are you?

01:05:45

James Redenbaugh: There's like, Oh, yeah, very well. Great great to be with you, too. And.

01:05:55

Lauren Tenney: Should we.

01:05:55

James Redenbaugh: Oh no!

01:05:56

Lauren Tenney: For your return, so we don't lose sight of each other. Would that be a good idea.

01:06:01

James Redenbaugh: You're welcome to. I'll make sure you have a link should be up to date with my available.

01:06:12

Lauren Tenney: Okay.

01:06:18

Rob Sinclair: Thank you. James.

01:06:22

James Redenbaugh: And check out this page. Love your feedback on it as well. I've been incubating it the last few months. I've probably put more time into this one page than ever any one page ever. You go a bit too many animations, but it's it was a fun fun thing to make with my team.

01:07:05

Rob Sinclair: Happy, to.

01:07:07

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, and I'll be in touch. I'll make an artifact from this, like the last meeting. And you guys will continue to to brew and see where you're you're content. Journey takes you and and writing and I'll be excited to to review that and touch base when I'm back.

01:07:37

Rob Sinclair: Wait!

01:07:40

James Redenbaugh: Awesome.

01:07:41

Rob Sinclair: You.

01:07:42

James Redenbaugh: See you guys take care.

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