00:00:29

Jan Pfister: Hello.

00:00:29

James Redenbaugh: Hi Jan.

00:00:31

Jan Pfister: Hi. James.

00:00:33

James Redenbaugh: Good to meet you. How are you?

00:00:35

Jan Pfister: Good, thanks. Long day, last meeting of today. So for me it's ten in the evening.

00:00:42

James Redenbaugh: Oh wow. Yeah, very long day. Are you in Finland?

00:00:48

Jan Pfister: Yes, yes. Yeah, for quite some while already. And yeah. So you are in California?

00:01:04

James Redenbaugh: I'm in Philadelphia now. Oh, I used to live in California.

00:01:09

Jan Pfister: Okay, great. Well yeah, as I said I think you're. You have been recommended as a. As a great web designer. So, so I wanted to check with you that what's. That's possible.

00:01:30

James Redenbaugh: Wonderful.

00:01:31

Jan Pfister: Yeah. And so the thing is I haven't done that so I think you need to guide me a bit in how that works. But essentially what happened is. So I'm doing research and maybe you saw, I don't know whether you saw this in my email there is a. To this article on the pro social market economy. That's a project that I'm working on for two years. It's a four year project. It is basically yeah, wanting to make a paradigm shift in performance management in organizations, you know, to become more great pro social groups and that they outperform basically groups that are dominated by self interest and they're very much the logic of pro social world. I believe you are the designer of the pro social web page. Right. Essentially, you know, it's the same logic but translated more to the economy. And yeah, my background is this performance management and then and culture and through that came this concept of the pro social market economy. And, and that's why I mean I'm working also with David Wilson and we have coordinated a bit, you know, kind of. Because I say it needs, there needs to be a page, you know that kind of shows that is for the market economy and builds this and has a bit kind of a different style than the process wrote to approach kind of more also business oriented, business minded people and invite them into this lecture. It's you know, it's the same area but it's kind of that it addresses a bit different. That's the idea here. And yeah, and the idea here is to make our logic. So let's say you have researchers that want to know what is disposal the market economy about and they go to the web page and they get the resources, they get the logic quite easily and you have practitioners, you know, executives, whoever goes on that page and they also quite quickly get it for themselves. You know, what's the logic. Get resources and maybe possibilities for workshops or whatever is it. And then also Policymakers and educators. So kind of that's the idea and yeah, make creating to kind of a bit of a hop for. For that wonderful. And I have a document which is I think not good enough but it summarizes a bit kind of the ideas. I can go through this with you. Maybe you want to say a bit more how you work or what?

00:04:27

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. So Iris, my studio stands for intuitive, relational and intersubjective. So essentially we love working with folks that are pro social. We loved working with pro social the organization. We've built two websites for them now and it's. You know, personally my passion is serving collectives. You know, I feel like we've had enough of the individual mindset and the only way forward is. Is learning how to be in groups better. And there's so much to learn and so much to remember from you know, ways that more collective mindsets at the past but so much to discover and innovate. When it comes to being in groups, we're called. I was co creative and we like to work as co creatively as possible. I have a wonderful team of different designers and developers and artists of different kinds and we collaborate intimately with our clients to not just create for them, but to create with them. And I've been doing this for 15 years with the. The same kind of niche client group that's also hard to define because it's not about one philosophy or methodology. It's anybody who has the intuition to. To look at groups and what's there and we still have so much to learn. You know, I, I'd love for. I intend for my studio to continue to. As it grows to become more and more collaborative and co creative. So this project definitely excites me also a little context. Have you happened to have heard of the work of Fernando Flores?

00:06:55

Jan Pfister: You have to help me.

00:06:56

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, he wrote a book called Conversations for Action. I think it's his most famous book. But he's. He's written a time. He's a philosopher of management who studied, who taught at Stanford for a long time and still teaches and he happens to be how my parents met before I was born and my mom was working for him and my dad was taking his courses and my dad ended up teaching with him. He's an economist. And, and so I grew up in the context of this management philosophy. So that piques my interest as well. They had a product called the Coordinator that was actually competing with email back in the day. It was much more kind of prescriptive communication. They're big on things like speech acts like what does a promise mean, what does an offer mean? How do we create trust? What actions happen in conversation? Is this a conversation for action? Is it a conversation for possibility, things like that? It's very ontological, very Heideggerian. And my experience with it is it doesn't go far enough. It's, it's somewhat we based. They talk about the collective and shared moods and things like that. But the drive behind it is kind of like becoming a better manager and increasing profit and efficiency. If I were to kind of be blunt and prescriptive and so I'm starting to dig into what you're doing. It excites me because it feels more ecosystemic, holistic, inclusive, but with the action orientation that I appreciate. So I love to learn more if we work together. And yeah, the process of working with us has, includes a lot of really getting to know what we're designing for in the beginning. And that's usually my job, working one one or one on a few and recording those sessions and seeing what emerges, seeing what is most important to communicate and co creating the architecture, the information architecture of what needs to be communicated, what people need to find, what kind of moods we want to inspire in them as they're finding things and then we start bringing that into design, plan branding if necessary, web design in Figma. And then we build most of our websites using a tool called webflow. Are you familiar with webflow?

00:10:15

Jan Pfister: I'm familiar with Squarespace, but I guess that's a bit too simple for you. Not enough.

00:10:23

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, you know, Squarespace is great for getting something simple up fast, but it's very square, it's very boxed in and templated. And webflow, the way that we use, makes anything possible. So any interface that we can imagine, we can create and we don't want to, you know, reinvent the wheel for the sake of it. But I find with when it comes to learning something new or understanding a new paradigm or expanding one's worldview, it's important to have a visual experience. Experience that complements the intellectual ideas that are trying to be communicated. So we like to find the forms or the diagrams or the animation that is something that people haven't seen before and reflects the message being communicated in the text and kind of opens them up to new possibilities like, oh, maybe more is possible in this domain than I previously imagined. And of course kind of illustrating the ideas whenever possible, finding the right images Graphics or animations that complement the work, either finding or creating those. And we, yeah, so we use a lot of different techniques. We have a, a big skill set across our team and so we can focus on what's most important and if needed, you know, we can dive into complex technical solutions or make something more artistic and creative, you know, or you know, integrate marketing platform or whatever. So. Yeah, any questions about all of that that I just shared?

00:12:39

Jan Pfister: Yeah, no, I mean, sounds brilliant. You know, I mean your background and the interest and kind of the way you think. Because I'm, I mean what I'm, what I want to do is basically, you know, getting people that think very much in these economic terms kind of integrate collective thinking into them. So it means the message in a way is still rest in economic performance. I mean also the homepage should a bit kind of, you know, should be very appealing in many ways, but it should also be appealing to the classic business manager that they kind of get into. It should be in a way because the, even the term pro social is a killer for some. Right. Because they immediately think charity, you know, kind of, you do things for free, it's kind of soft or whatever. And, and one thing is kind of what I want to do is to create the pro. The term pro social as economic value creation. Because I mean in the end what you do now is just basically, you know, we provide a service and your team provides within a service and we provide the service outlet. So it's all pro social behavior that leads in the end to economic value creation and capture. And it's funny, you know, that we don't think this way. So kind of the home page should for example, communicate that in a way that. Because as soon as you start changing the wording, well, that's how we think. Because theory affects behavior. So if you start thinking, if pro social becomes the core term of economic value creation, it has a performative effect and self fulfilling effect which means react. So that I think is a core one. I think on that level that we talk about for.

00:14:42

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. I'm sure you're familiar with reinventing organizations.

00:14:48

Jan Pfister: Yeah. Yes.

00:14:50

James Redenbaugh: And spiral dynamic model behind it. So I hear that you're needing this to appeal to a very orange crowd that are kind of in that, you know, embedded in that meme. I picture most of the economic world is still very modern or I don't want to limit us to these terms, but I'm trying to understand.

00:15:19

Jan Pfister: Yeah. And I mean not just Basically it's a cultural evolution in the market economy. That's kind of the idea we would like to start. You know, like you say you want to have a team where people are collaborative, people enjoy going to work. They identify not only with themselves but with the team and with organization and with the planet. And what we see with performance management, they are just designed in a way that we automatically identify more with ourselves than with the team because of the incentive systems. I mean what you are evaluated individually. You know, you get your bonus depending on what kind of organization you're working on. So it's kind of this shift of identity. But yeah, so that's what comes to mind and.

00:16:18

James Redenbaugh: Awesome. I'm curious how the advent of generative AI is maybe affecting this work just because to me I think of it as a, a window into the collective. You know, it's bringing it's artificial intelligence, but it's really a view on collective intelligence because it's fed by so many inputs.

00:16:54

Jan Pfister: How, how that relates. So it's quite, I mean I had actually just before a meeting we write with a, with somebody who is a digital transformation expert and a consultant who is a specialist on entity. And we have just had this discussion just before. So yeah, I mean how does, how do you build this into the age where human and non humans work together and how we teach basically non humans because they are basically just a mirror of our own behavior. And that's the question. So if you create pro social groups more as a norm then it kind of, it can reinforce this kind of cultural evolution. And the other way is we teach them individual optimization and separation and then you get more of this. So it's kind of. And then the question what is empathy in the machines? Yeah, but I mean this has a big, it's, it's a big topic and I think it is exactly the opportunity at this point in time need to kind of live in this revolution in the next few years. So I think exactly something like that. I mean it's great that you think that you have this headline because I think these things need to be ideally communicated as well. That kind of how do we create the digital teams? Or is it.

00:18:36

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, I actually just gave a talk at the Hollow Movement Conference, 10 minute talk about how AI can help us to be more collaborative and increase awareness of the collective. And as I went about kind of researching that I found I have more questions than answers. And so I mostly Talked about Marshall McLuhan Are you familiar with Marshall McLuhan?

00:19:21

Jan Pfister: Yeah.

00:19:22

James Redenbaugh: He was a media. Media studies theorist in the 50s and 60s Canadian who talked about the impact that media has on individuals and. And society. And I found his views to be especially pertinent right now as we're trying to understand the impact that these LLMs can, you know, will. Will have on us. Because fundamentally they're another technology, another medium of communication, but they're also inherently new. We haven't had anything that we can interact with in this way. And I think that you're. It feels like you're right. That can either lead us down or, you know, we can take the path towards greater separation, isolation, which I think ironically, social media has had that effect on us, despite the promise of the global village, of the Internet. But if we're conscious about it, I think that these large language models that there are paths towards more collaboration and there's a big opportunity for a shift in identity because so many of us are identified, especially men are identified with their mind and their intellect. And soon we're going to be encountering intelligences that far surpass any of us. And that's going to really cause us to question what is intelligence and what is mine. And, you know, maybe the intelligence that I thought was mine wasn't mine to begin with. Maybe human intelligence wasn't. Wasn't human to begin with. And then there's an opportunity to either have like a collapse and, you know, an existential crisis, or shift our identity into something greater. A working group, a community, an organization, family, village. That's what I think we need to do.

00:21:49

Jan Pfister: Yeah. So it goes into the same with the kind of first intelligence. Kind of, is it all from me? You know, kind of is it kind of. It's all here. Right. So it's kind of. Or. Or does it. I mean, where does that even come from? So it's kind of funny. As humans, I think the standard is kind of, this is me. But I mean, it comes from somewhere, all these ideas, and we don't know exactly the collective. So I guess it is a bit the same in the sense of what do you. With what intelligence do you identify that or how you're. Yeah. So you think really far. Wow, I'm really impressed.

00:22:33

James Redenbaugh: Thanks. It's not me, It's. It's whatever, you know, it's the conversations I'm a part of. Even Fernando, the guy I mentioned, used to say, intelligence doesn't exist in the mind. It exists in conversation, in dialogue. And I think that's more and more True. The more we surrender to it.

00:22:58

Jan Pfister: So kind of to let it flow. That's it. Right. But how do you, I mean I saw on your homepage. I mean you have an impressive customer base.

00:23:11

James Redenbaugh: Yeah.

00:23:12

Jan Pfister: So how, I mean, how did you do. I mean how that, how did you get to all these? I'm sure it's because it's very good. Obviously.

00:23:21

James Redenbaugh: What do you do they find me. I don't know. I've been really lucky to have only done word of mouth. I also, I love going to conferences and events and meeting people in person. Since I work for, you know, myself and I work with people all over the world. It's always great to get to be together. And so, you know, many people I meet at conferences or through past clients, things like that, and I think from the beginning I just held a really strong intention that I want to work with folks that are focusing on groups and I've had different ways of speaking to that over time. But I, there's not any other design studios that I'm aware of that have that particular focus. So I have a, a unique ability to understand the clients that we work with and help translate that for my team to invite them into collaboration and then we help the clients translate that to form and language for the people that they want to reach.

00:24:55

Jan Pfister: Well, I think this is the important one that you kind of. That kind of the vision is understood or co created in a way and kind of. Yeah that then it lurks towards that and I mean the topic, you know, for me, of course, because I'm doing this, I care quite much that this is really something that resonates. I mean, something I need to ask you also because I mean, you know, I have an academic background, I'm not a big company or anything. What, what is a, what is the budget for such a. To me work together kind of. What is the range for that?

00:25:38

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, good question. I can put a proposal together for you, but a, a standard process starts around US$7,500 and it can go up from there depending on the complexity of the website or how deep you want to go into different creative processes. We also have a new model that is rhythm based, that's less focused on the whole project. So those kind of projects we design the whole thing from strategy and vision in the beginning to branding and story to design and development. But we also have this new rhythm model where you can start to leverage our team in a more dynamic way where we can Kind of begin with a piece, workshop that together and grow it from there over time. Either way I can share more information about that. But do you have a sense of a budget that you were hoping to work with it?

00:26:56

Jan Pfister: I mean primarily to have a really good homepage. So. And so if I start. Understand right. So it's $750 is kind of the base to get where you start and then depending on the complexity goes right.

00:27:13

James Redenbaugh: 7,500. So 7,500.

00:27:15

Jan Pfister: 7,500 is to start. Okay. And that means. Okay, I think so 750, but that could be. So 7,500. Okay, well that's kind of on my upper limit, so I have to check that and, but yeah, for that price, that's kind of. What do you get for that?

00:27:40

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. So if we're going to do a full project together, you know, we don't do anything half ass and we want to make sure that we have time to really make it authentic to what you're creating, something that's going to work for you and something that's going to last a long time. And building in webflow, you don't need updates, you don't need maintenance. You can edit the content yourself and add new articles or posts or whatever we design for you. And so the process includes strategy, vision, branding, style guide, creation, finding the right colors, typographies, things like that for you. And, and then of course, designing the pages, working with you on content. We don't like to just create the content for you because it's your website, but we can advise you on, you know, how to say what you're trying to say. You obviously have a lot of, you know, writing and papers and we want to feed those to people in the right way so they don't get overwhelmed immediately. And then of course, designing it and putting it all together, making sure it's mobile, responsive, accessible, beautiful and editable.

00:29:21

Jan Pfister: That sounds all good. The budget is a bit of problem. Nothing to fit higher than I, I mean I knew of course if on that quality level that you are, you need to charge something. I totally get that.

00:29:32

James Redenbaugh: That.

00:29:32

Jan Pfister: So it's. So that would basically include the basic.

00:29:42

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, and I wouldn't. Basic isn't the right word because it's very complete and there's ways that we can abbreviate certain things as well. So if the branding, for example, can be more straightforward, then we don't need to spend as much time on branding. And there's also the rhythm model where we can kind of kick off together and then steer dynamically to build the website over time and find together the most efficient path forward. And so you could, for example, sign up for a month at a certain scale. They each have a name. And so like Prism scale is, it's about 2,000 bucks a month, a little bit more. And it means that we're doing kind of one creative push together per week. So we might have a meeting where we'll workshop stuff and then I'll delegate some things to my team and review with you asynchronously. And then we do another push the next week and kind of see how far we get at the end of the month. And it's possible if we're really, you know, if we're moving very efficiently to get a solid slide up in that model in two months at, you know, 2,000amonth. But it's a different, it's a different kind of approach where we're not consciously designing the whole timeline and going through each stage. It's more iterative. But it can better for getting up a kind of MVP product, like the most viable product, and then evolving that over time. And it can be good for kind of just getting to know each other's working style and creative capabilities and making progress quickly. So I can send you more information on both models. I like both of them. We have a number of clients in the rhythm model right now and it's really great to just to know how many times a week I should be focusing on something or how many times a month. And it's all Octave based. So like the level I just mentioned is once a week. New clients we asked to start there so that we can really sink our teeth into something. But then you can scale down to twice a month, once a month, once every two months, or just kind of a small check in once a month to move things from forward. Or if you want us to make kind of incremental improvements to the site, look at analytics, things like that. And of course you can scale up as well to, you know, do a big push twice a week or involve more team members that are working in parallel doing any number of things. But the page I'll share will have more information on that. We're actually just redoing it this week, so I'll send that over and then I can also share a proposal of the more timeline based approach and that, you know, I would recommend the $7,000 level to really go through the process and make something really great. But like I mentioned, it is possible to abbreviate that if there's things that are less needed for you.

00:34:07

Jan Pfister: You know, I think the question that I have here is because this is kind of just starting off, you know, kind of this whole concept, the whole. I see it starts going in all kinds of directions, but is there also for you a possibility to kind of start with a very rather basic, you know, version that can be kind of upgraded over time? That for example, the budget wise that it would start not with kind of with a lower budget, you wouldn't have so much work in that sense. And then somebody kind of would set the space, you know, that it could, depending on how it goes that it can be developed is something like that.

00:34:50

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. And the rhythm model I mentioned is good for that. And, and in that model we can set goals and expectations. You know, like at the start of a, a cycle we can talk about, you know, what do we want to get done a month from now, you know, what do we want to get done two months from now? And, and do our best to achieve those goals together. But it's more about kind of dynamically steering then plotting the whole course. So it could be really good for where you're at right now.

00:35:28

Jan Pfister: Yeah. Okay. And so just for how. So the next step is you sent me the possibilities and then. Yes.

00:35:39

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, yeah, I'll send you the page explaining the new model and the. At different levels. And it's something we've just been prototyping this year. We started like us last November with some clients and it's been going really well and continues to evolve also. And it's, I don't really think of it as a subscription model. A lot of studios do this subscription model. I don't like that way of thinking about it because you're not, you know, subscribing to something that we're producing and just putting out. It's just a different way to kind of gate and measure the service we provide. And it's not the kind of thing that we hope you forget that you're paying for, you know, and just keep paying for it. And it comes with a guarantee too. So like at the end of the month, if you don't feel like we did, you know, we put in the time and effort that we agreed to, then we can adjust our expectations. I don't, I never want our clients to feel like they're paying for something that they're not getting value of.

00:37:07

Jan Pfister: But it basically gives a monthly timeline. That's kind of what this.

00:37:14

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, yeah. And it's a little, this idea is a little woo, but I'm thinking about, instead of aligning it to the Gregorian calendar, I'm thinking about shifting it into a lunar cycle so it's exactly four weeks and so that it always aligns up. Because doing it on monthly now, it's easiest for communication and thinking about like, okay, what do we want to do in May? But then some months are longer than others and months always begin on new day. I like, you know, thinking about the rhythm of the week or the rhythm of four weeks or the rhythm of three months of a season. And the moon aligns nicely with those things. So we're figuring those details out as we go along. But basically it's a monthly rhythm. There is a weekly option too, but it's more expensive and there's a quarterly option as well, which, you know, saves money.

00:38:23

Jan Pfister: So how long does it take to get, let's say if you don't, it's a basic page for these kind of different groups with good approach as well. How long would that take to get a basic page?

00:38:43

James Redenbaugh: Let's say it's hard to say because I've, you know, I've made hundreds of websites myself. Between my team members, we've made thousands. And I know I can, you know, we could spend half a day together and get something up, but I can't tell you until we do that, like how usable it'll be. We need to start kind of opening the book, seeing what's there, seeing what the creative and technical challenges are going to be and kind of sinking our teeth into it. But, and there's, I'd say a month at the Prism scale, around the two thousand dollar level. I forget exactly what it is now, but you know, we could have the goal of getting something up by the end of the month. At that, at that level it's going to be a lot more, you know, minimal and pared down than going through a full process together. But it's definitely enough space to get something usable online, to get you set up in a webflow environment and to start playing with stuff. But it's not necessarily what I would recommend because it's kind of jumping some steps. So the final product, you know, versus let's say you wanted to take two months at Prism or one month at Flow, which is double the Prism level, then that would give us space to, you know, at least play with some branding ideas before we jump right into design and take more time with the language and the information architecture and make sure it's really, it's built really well to grow with you as well. You know, we're not cutting corners in the development, things like that, so. But either way we can move fast. You know, I think a month is a good timeline to think about it and my team has availability right now because we've been scaling and we just finished a bunch of projects, so it's really up to you. But I'd recommend kind of starting the conversation, having a, a vision session with me where we really take longer time to explore the material. I can take time to really read and digest the writing and then we can look at things together. I can visually facilitate a creative process where we look at what's most important, what's key, what are the goals and then you know, after that we'll both have a much clearer sense of what's most important to create right now and how much effort is it going to take.

00:42:19

Jan Pfister: Yeah. So would that be an additional session to decide where to go with this?

00:42:26

James Redenbaugh: Would that be you could, we can do a one off session, but also those kind of sessions can be a part of whatever level you choose.

00:42:34

Jan Pfister: Yes, yes. No, that's, yeah, sounds excellent.

00:42:42

James Redenbaugh: Cool.

00:42:44

Jan Pfister: I just, I think, yeah, we'll have to have a look at what you just, if you can say tell me what from, you know, from what do I need to have to go into the process? I mean, kind of I have an idea, of course I have a document, but I mean on the very basic level, what do I to have? This is a good constructive process. You know, what is my homework before it even starts?

00:43:12

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. Yeah, great question. You know, ideas.

00:43:18

Jan Pfister: Yeah.

00:43:18

James Redenbaugh: Are key the material, you know, or some sense of the project that we're creating this for. And the, but the most important thing is to just feel ready to take it to the next level. To, to put it out there. And that's your own inner confidence on the matter. I find if a client is you know, hesitant to, to really start something for whatever reason and they kind of, they work with the studio as like a, a way to like, oh well, maybe that'll get me to do it like There it's important to, you know, when you're ready to push something in the world to partner with the right group to do it. But it's also, you know, we're helping you and doing it with you, not for you. And you're putting it out there is not just about creating the content and us creating the website. It's about like being ready to take the stand in the work and make the statement and you know, when you speak with others to speak from a place of clarity and you know that can happen before the thing is actually ready, you know, and has a bow on it. You'll, you know, inside yourself.

00:45:11

Jan Pfister: Oh yeah, that's really helpful. Yes.

00:45:14

James Redenbaugh: Awesome.

00:45:17

Jan Pfister: Great. I have another question, but because it's later, I forgot it.

00:45:25

James Redenbaugh: No worries. Well, feel free to email me at any time. I'm going to finish up this page that outlines the options either tonight or tomorrow and I'll send that over to you and then we can continue the conversation from there.

00:45:45

Jan Pfister: Yeah, that's great. And, and just for me to be sure I understood you right, because budget is know is a topic a bit. So do I get this right? So if you would go with a simple page, it could be in the range of two to four. Right. Two months. So in that range two to $4,000 could set up a basic page on which could be built on. Correct?

00:46:12

James Redenbaugh: Yeah yeah.

00:46:14

Jan Pfister: And now understand now I've remembered my question. If, if you still have that how much time would you think does it require for me? So because it is co creation and of course it is kind of the mission that needs to be what does it. So let's say we will do this one or two months, you know, fast track. What approximately does it mean? Because I have a busy schedule and I would want to do it. Well then of course.

00:46:43

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. Well, the, it's hard to say exactly before we really get into what's there, but I can say that the less you're trying to use our team to move things forward, the more work you're going to end up doing yourself.

00:47:10

Jan Pfister: And.

00:47:11

James Redenbaugh: But no matter what, there's going to be a good amount of work for you to do. It's with the rhythm model, it's hard for me to predict. With the timeline model it's a lot easier. You know, it's a few periods of writing and a few periods of review and doesn't necessarily have to be a whole. A whole lot of work. And so I think that the. The main effort is going to be spending time with the. The language and distilling it down. And that doesn't have to take a lot of hours. It's more about, you know, holding it in your awareness as you're going through life and doing other things, sitting down in the right moment and finding that clarity, you know, talking with other people, having dialogue about what you're bringing together. It takes. It takes some hours and it takes some time. You know, it takes some. Some incubation time. Like I said, we could, you know, we could sit down in a day and put something out by the. By the end of the day, but that's not necessarily the best use of our time. I think that you can feel into the right. The right cadence. And at the rhythm model, we would. At the prism scale, we would have one check in per week. And I would give you homework to do for the next week. Things to think about, write about. I have different questionnaires that I can share with you.

00:49:15

Jan Pfister: Now. Something happened with the sound, but an output. Yeah, but basically, yes, you'll have to. The last thing I heard is kind of a weekly check in and you give some things to think about. Yeah, Yeah. I think for me, what I realize is, I think the bigger thing is to. As I'm not yet fully. I know what this is all about. This page, you know, the basics, but I do not exactly know where it all will go. You know, kind of. Will it be a page with subscription? Will there be a podcast? Will there be, you know, all this? I mean, I know it's basically basic up to start, but then, I don't know. Does this become, you know, will we have more commercialized, you know, workshops that we. I mean, I have an idea, but things develop. Right. And that's what I want to kind of get something out that can kind of can then be built on. So, you know, that's why probably it's quite basic at the beginning still, relatively to pages to be made.

00:50:25

James Redenbaugh: And yeah, you. You don't have to know all that to. To get started. I'll love, you know, exploring all those possibilities with you. And it might be most helpful to take a month or. I don't know about your. Your timelines and your hopes on that, but if we could take a month to kind of just be in an expansive view and not worry about production, I feel like we could get a lot done around laying things out and making a map and looking at different possibilities together, also bringing inspiration for brand and feel and style and precedent and things like that. And then in month two, we'd have so much more clarity and an awesome palette to kind of jump into design and action and production.

00:51:47

Jan Pfister: Okay. Yeah, that helped.

00:51:50

James Redenbaugh: Cool. Okie dokie.

00:51:55

Jan Pfister: Yeah, Great. Great. Thanks for meeting, and we'll get back to it.

00:52:03

James Redenbaugh: No problem. I'll talk to you soon.

00:52:05

Jan Pfister: Yep.

00:52:06

James Redenbaugh: Have a great evening, and I'll be in touch.

00:52:10

Jan Pfister: Yeah, great. Thanks a lot.

00:52:12

James Redenbaugh: Ciao.

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