00:00:00

James Redenbaugh: But Zoom has its own. This meeting is being recorded.

00:00:03

Devin Martin: Okay. So, yeah, I've seen Firefly. I've never seen the Zoom one, though.

00:00:09

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, I don't do the Zoom recordings because I ran out of space there anyway. But the Fireflies gives me good summaries, and I can search through the meetings, and it does a better transcript than Zoom.

00:00:21

Devin Martin: Oh, really?

00:00:22

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. And transcripts are really great because we can mine them for. For information and ideas and come back to them as needed. So, anyway.

00:00:35

Devin Martin: Oh, that's the other thing that this guy Devin, he also is a podcast producer.

00:00:39

James Redenbaugh: Wow.

00:00:40

Devin Martin: And so were talking. He just told me to use this. This AI app. Descript or no, Rescript, I think it's. You basically can. It transcribes the recording of a conversation, and you can edit the text, and that outputs edited video.

00:00:56

James Redenbaugh: And I was like, amazing.

00:00:58

Devin Martin: Beautiful.

00:00:59

James Redenbaugh: Wow. You guys are twins.

00:01:02

Devin Martin: I know, right?

00:01:04

James Redenbaugh: That's incredible. Yeah, that blows my mind. Are you gonna have him on the podcast?

00:01:14

Devin Martin: Probably. Yeah, definitely. I. I've been on every episode or every season of his podcast, and he was like, oh, I think I have to fly you out here. There's one more thing I have to record for the third season, and you've been in the first episode of every season. He's like, so I think I'm gonna fly you back out. The. The. The guy, he. He sat with somebody on death row as his chaplain, and then after this man was executed, he left a box, and he's gonna open the box, and he's like, I think you should be here with me when I open the box and see what he left.

00:01:45

James Redenbaugh: Wow.

00:01:46

Devin Martin: Yeah.

00:01:47

James Redenbaugh: Beautiful. Amazing.

00:01:50

Devin Martin: So, yeah, so tell me. Tell me what. What today is about.

00:01:54

James Redenbaugh: Today is about whatever wants to emerge. We can follow the thread and see where the energy and the excitement is. And I'm here to. To map or draw or shape or inform or talk about technology or strategy. We can. If there's energy around the. The brand and the esthetics and the image and the feeling, we can follow that. There's energy around the structure and the pieces and the technologies and how they need to come together, we can follow that. We can do both and talk about the in between. But what's most important is getting to know the. The purpose and the intelligence that's driving your work. You know, what's. What's pushing you forward, what's pulling you forward, and what's kind of the big picture, the. The.

00:02:57

James Redenbaugh: The landscape that you're in, the reasons that you're doing all this and the context that you're doing it all in, and so that I can get a better sense of that and we can develop a shared language for that so that we can play in that space together and start creating. Laying the foundation for a building or a village or a spaceship, however we want to think about it. You know, we can talk about those metaphors. And so one goal is for what we're talking about to become more solid, to not just be a, an idea for a podcast and a book. But, you know, I want to feel like I can touch what you're talking about.

00:03:53

James Redenbaugh: Those are mediums, you know, but there's a, you know, there's a big difference between one book and another book, between Eckhart Tolle books and, you know, a science textbook or the Bible. And I want to get in contact with the entity that is the book that is the bigger project, including the podcast, and kind of continue in your discovery. Because I know that you're the. The book's not fully written. You're. Yeah, you're in. In your process. And so I don't want to pin it down at any point and say, you know, it is this. It's more about finding the arrows that you have a sense of that point towards what it is. And then from there we can see more clearly together. Like, oh, it, you know, it.

00:05:02

James Redenbaugh: It's round, not sharp, or it's pentagonal, not hexagonal, you know, or it's, you know, has this texture to it. And then that can inform design decisions in the website and the graphic assets.

00:05:22

Devin Martin: Yeah, I'm feeling drawn to jump into, like, the mark, maybe the tagline, and just like, play with the ideas, because that's the part that feels like the most potent and unformed in my mind.

00:05:40

James Redenbaugh: Great.

00:05:40

Devin Martin: And I feel like it kind of challenges us to distill, you know.

00:05:48

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. So I'm going to bring up your doc here.

00:05:53

Devin Martin: Yeah. Yeah. And also anything that's in my mind, that document, like, says it all and it's super clear. And so. But obviously that's my mind and I would, if you have any questions or. I'm going to grab that as well. I would love to know, like, what that asked you, like, what. What that brought up or if there's anything that's unclear or contradictory, you know.

00:06:16

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, this is a great starting point. And, you know, there's probably like 12 taglines here. And so I wonder what, you know, in some mind, in my mind, some are better than others. But it's not about finding the best one. It's about the developing a shared sense of what. Of what that tagline needs to be. You know, we don't need to find the perfect words yet. But I want to grok with you. Like, okay, here's really, you know, here's the. The main channel, you know, of energy that's coming through this. This podcast.

00:07:05

Devin Martin: Yeah, Yeah. I tried to go through and delete more of them, and I was like, oh, they each have a little something that I want to include. And I was like, and I didn't spend a lot of time with this. I put a lot of text into three different AIs, and then took the text from one AI and put in another AI and then gave them the list and said, here's a list. Distill that to another one. And I just was just bouncing between AIs and then I was like, oh, yeah. But I don't feel like I've captured it in a cohesive. Like, there's. It's not all in one place yet.

00:07:37

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. And that's fine. That's fine. But, yeah, so maybe if we could go. Start by going back in time a little bit. If you could trace back to when you had your initial impulses to take on this project. You know, what's. What are the roots of this? What. What brought you to this point of. Of wanting to write this book? What does that look like?

00:08:14

Devin Martin: I. This is one of the ones that's like, if you ask me when I decided to be a parent, and I'm like, it goes back as far as I know what a parent is. I grew up being like, how will this prepare me to be a parent? And how will that be? Like, I've. And every woman I ever met, I'm like, is she the mother of my children? Like, it was always who. And. And there's some part of me that's like, I. I feel like I recognized it was hidden that was like, oh, I'm a writer. I have. And I would say for 15 years, 20 years, there's this been. Intuition. Like, this is the important thing that you're actually doing. Like, all this coaching and all this other crap, like, this is all helping. And it's.

00:08:56

Devin Martin: And it's one of those things that feels so arrogant or like, self, you know, I don't know. Yeah, like, oh, yeah. Like, you know, you have a great book to write. Like, I think everybody has some intuition like that at some point. Most people never write them. And so. And it's especially hard when I admitted that it was my life story, which is, you know, even more self centered. But yeah, I don't know, I, I was just thinking that like I. There's one journal from 13 years ago. I don't have much journaling kept where before I went and lived on the mountain for a year. I started a new journal and I remember I found some documents like, oh, I was thinking about this book 13 years ago.

00:09:43

Devin Martin: I know that at least I was starting to see the, I started to see the outlines of it. And so I, I think the initial seeds, the big themes that I was outlining that like, oh, I know this has to come through in the book. It's about a failed rite of passage to leave adolescence and become a contributing member of society. Like, that is a theme of like, I didn't do a bar mitzvah. I spent many years pushing myself towards existential crises, trying to get a felt sense of responsibility for my life and my plan to find my place in society and radically destroyed myself, like my ego, my rational brain, like everything. And I feel like I was really just like trying to create this ritual that I wasn't given.

00:10:46

Devin Martin: And so I feel like that and then learning how to fit into society and then later on learning how to lead society. But. And so I think at some point I started to realize that like, oh, there's. This is like such a common story for young men. Like, we are just big boys running around and running amok in the world and like we get drunk and drive cars drunk and like, just like flirt with danger. All trying to feel a sense of like responsibility and ownership and the preciousness of life. And so like I was like, oh, like that was something like, oh, that story needs to be told of.

00:11:25

James Redenbaugh: You.

00:11:25

Devin Martin: Know, and like, and then realizing like humanity is kind of at this place too where like we're responsible for way more than we take ownership for being responsible for. Like, we're just starting to realize like the Anthra, Anthropocene. Like, you know, like we're actually the ones shaping the planet. You know, there's a great Charles Eisenstein thing. I made a graphic out of an Instagram. He's basically going from like from mother Earth to lover Earth, where we go from like the mother is someone you take from and your lover is someone you co create with. So I feel like the parallel in humanity is that we're going from taking from the earth as a child to this adult stance of like, we're partners here. You know, and there's just respect and gratitude and nurture and you can nurture what nurtured you.

00:12:16

Devin Martin: And so I think there was that big realization. And then later on, or no, actually maybe about the same time, there's also this realization of like I'm hyper rational and it's preventing me from being truly present with reality. Like my logical mind is, is an impediment, it's a veil, it's a reducing filter. And actually reality is far greater than I can ever comprehend intellectually. And my culture has raised me to believe that only that which is logical is real. And so realizing that like that was something that was kind of the leading edge of society in my mind was like, oh, this rational thing is important, but actually it's getting in the way. And so like, I think, you know, those were two big.

00:13:08

Devin Martin: Realizing how much of those things had shaped my life and made me miserable and cut me off from my spirituality and cut me off from community and cut me off from the fel sense of my body and like realizing how much I had not been raised to be a whole human. I hadn't been given a religion or you know, any kind of culture in my community or anything that would bring me from a child into like the adult I would actually want to be.

00:13:40

Devin Martin: And then just feeling like that's a universal experience and that what we end up with is a lot of like half formed adults, you know, lives of quiet desperation or people who don't feel their bodies or people who have no spiritual life and that leads to a lot of shitty products and extraction and consumption and all the horrors that we, you know, do to animals and all these things. And so like I was, you know, so I, I'm trying, I'm putting words to it now, but it was all a very vague intuition in the beginning that like, if I try to tell this story, I'm going to be forced to grapple with these things which are actually what my work is about and what's interesting to me and what I want to help other people navigate with me.

00:14:27

Devin Martin: And so I think now, like as I'm laying it out through the story arc, I'm seeing the contours better. But yeah, there's definitely a sense that we are co creating some new mythology and we don't know what it is yet. And we all have to tell our stories and reveal where we, you know, where we feel let down and what we hoped for and yearned for and didn't get. And then also just like how we've been changed and how we've been evolving and, like, what seems to be the leading edge for us individually, like that. That's what the podcast is very much about.

00:15:05

Devin Martin: Like, I want to hear how people were raised, what they believe to be real and true and valuable and where they've had major shifts in perspective and then kind of like how that relates to what they think might be next.

00:15:22

James Redenbaugh: What do you think might be next?

00:15:26

Devin Martin: I don't know. I mean, that. The reason why I think I'm the right person to do this is because I'm just insanely curious. Like, I really don't know. And I'm. I have, like, I'm pulling on a lot of threads. Like, I'm super interested in cutting edge philosophy of science around quantum physics and consciousness and all that stuff, you know, while I'm very excited about psychedelics and I'm very excited about contemplative practices and meditation and how all of that ties into traditions and, you know, indigenous culture and the arc of religions, you know, and how, like, we're. We're weaving a new fabric. I don't know what that fabric looks like. When you zoom out, I can just see some of the threads, you know.

00:16:12

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, awesome. Yeah, I'm really seeing the power you have in holding that question, that big question mark. And I think about this table that you have here of the different resources, the different. I don't know what we would call these, but aspects where.

00:16:38

Devin Martin: Oh, yeah, resources was just for everything that goes under. There is different things like that. Like this interview, this table, this. That. But yeah, this table. Yeah, was just like, you have, you.

00:16:49

James Redenbaugh: Know, all these aspects of religion, all these. Or functions of religion, functions of science, and then no answers in the right hand column, you know, they're left blank. But I could picture you on your journey, traveling around, interviewing these different pictures, starting to fill in your map of, you know, what. What does the intersection of these two things look like in these. In these domains? What. What starts to form? And not that there will be, you know, definitive, rational, logical answers for all of these things, but there's a sense of excitement in what's. What's left to be uncovered.

00:17:35

Devin Martin: Yeah. Yeah. And I. And I think one of my. I think one of my gifts is loving being totally comfortable not knowing. Like, I still like to play in the space of not knowing. Like, I like to be in that exploration. I'm not desperate to pin it down in any way. Like, I don't know that we can know the origin of anything. The Big Bang, Genesis, Darling, I'm not convinced that's knowable, but I think it's potent to unwind the old stories and hold space and see what comes up.

00:18:06

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, yeah.

00:18:10

Devin Martin: And, and honestly, that might be what I'm doing more than anything else is just liberating people from the old stories. I don't even know how important it is to have a new story yet, like. But I do think we all have to kind of let go of the things that divide us.

00:18:29

James Redenbaugh: Definitely. I think if the first words in the Bible, in the Aramaic version, you know, in the beginning there was the word, but the word they use for word is logos, which means so much more than the word. It's, it's logic, you know, it's pattern. And there's no disagreement from the what. From the realm of science, that there's a, you know, a deep logic at the heart of everything. There must be so many moments where there's synergy and agreement between religion and science that get, you know, that are occluded by all the perceived disagreements and differences which probably tend to come from, you know, our human imperfection and egos and desires for power and control rather than real logical conclusions.

00:19:55

Devin Martin: Yeah, it's funny how illogical the world of reason actually is. Dig in.

00:20:02

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, I've always felt like atheism is such a funny theism. You know, these religious nut jobs that pretend they don't have a God but worship this very specific thing.

00:20:18

Devin Martin: Yeah, it's. It's a strange thing to hang your hat on.

00:20:25

James Redenbaugh: But what's beautiful and good about atheism?

00:20:32

Devin Martin: Oh, I think there's an absolute desire for the. To. To. For honesty and to be in touch with reality. I mean, I think there's like a, there's a massive integrity in the intention to not be deluded and not. And not to submit to something you don't fully know or understand or believe in. You know, I, I think it's. I, I think it comes from a, A desire for gnosis. You know, I think it just misses the ex. Experiential direct path. There's a lack of. Maybe of. But I, I think I absolutely want the scientific method applied to all of the spiritual rich history we have to. To mine. You know, I think it's a great reducing filter.

00:21:27

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, My questions are a little all over the place, but they're helping me get a sense of the picture. I'm curious how subjectivity and intersubjectivity come into play in this work for you.

00:21:48

Devin Martin: I mean, I'm very much like a Ken Wilber person in the sense of the big three or the four quadrants being, I think, fundamental perspectives that are all important and valuable, you know, and so I think atheism represents, you know, the objective, the third person. I think the mystical traditions represent the first person, and then, you know, and then there's communion or community or the shared, you know, exploration of what comes up between us, which is what, you know, the book is throwing something into that space. The podcast is trying to, like, hold that space as a container, you know, because I, I have my personal experience, but I, I, it doesn't mean much unless I can relate it to somebody, you know, unless somebody else can go there with me or I can share it with somebody.

00:22:44

Devin Martin: So we're, you know, we're searching for shared meaning, and I think, you know, the objective is a tool, science and reason, or, you know, they, they give us whatever you want to call it, facts or symbols or shared objects that we can relate to.

00:23:00

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, a lot of what you shared about lacking in your childhood feels related to that quadrant around community, shared meaning, context.

00:23:18

Devin Martin: Absolutely. Yeah. No, I, I very much did not fit in with the community I was raised in because they were pretty traditional, Catholic, Christian, whatever. And then I thought I fit in with my parents until at some point when I didn't because they were so atheist. And so there was definitely a lack of, like, communion around. My curiosity and my experiences and ways to contextualize them that felt helpful were hard to find. You know, books. Books became more important than friends for a while, which is probably why I feel called to write a book, because it's been such a lifeline to me to have access to minds that I couldn't meet in person before, you know, when my life was much smaller and I was in a tiny town.

00:24:17

James Redenbaugh: Wonderful. So when it comes to the brand, you shared a number of logo ideas and some a. Forms. What's. What's present for you right now. When you think of the brand, are there any colors or visual qualities that you can identify?

00:24:42

Devin Martin: I keep. So I, I rendered an image of the book, and that popped into my head at the end of a psychedelic journey. And it was just a black hardcover with gold embossed lettering. And that was the first time I had seen that or thought of that. And I was like, oh, that surprised me. Like, I've got that rendering. And I was like, oh, that's way more austere than I thought I was going for. I mean, but. But then I think about it and I'm like, I do want this to feel clean and simple and modern. I don't know if it's sharp edges or not. I kind of liked that circle around the A's. I don't like the way any of these look exactly, but they all capture something like the. The cascading series of A's.

00:25:37

Devin Martin: I liked it as theism, atheism, recognizing there were beliefs before that, there will beliefs after that. This is just a snapshot of time. Like, I liked that sense of, like, existing in a flow and evolutionary progress. There was something kind of clever about stacking three A's to make one big A that is like a whole on thing, you know? Like, I like when separate parts can become a bigger whole. I like that sense. And the circle around the two A's actually is a closer, like, more beautiful version of that, I think. Like, it's not actually that I want two A's to make a big A. Like, I don't. I'm not obsessed with A's. And then the other one there, it kind of reminded me, I think, of like, you know, Richard Rohr, the Two mountains.

00:26:31

James Redenbaugh: No, I was just Googling that.

00:26:34

Devin Martin: So. So it's. It's his basic book. The basic concept is that the first half of life is the objective world. It's like figuring out how to take care of yourself and get a job and make a family. And then the second half of life is this inner journey. And I don't actually want a life. Like, what I'm searching for is not actually divided in time with an outer journey and inner journey, but it honors the subjective and the objective. And I do think those are two, like, mountains, if you want to call them that. And I think that idea grabs people when they hear it. They're like, yes.

00:27:13

Devin Martin: And it is what a lot of, like, my clients and the people I talk to are dealing with is like, they kind of solve for the first putt piece, realize that they're not fulfilled, and then go, wait a minute. I did all the things that society said I was supposed to do. Why aren't I suddenly happy now? And then they work with me and they're like, oh, it's an inner journey. And then we start exploring how the inner journey actually changes the outer journey. It's not done. It's just a new way of being in the world. And so, yeah. Yeah, but I don't know that, like, I like any of the lines in any of these, you know, like, they don't look good to me. They're more cons. They're more conceptually interesting.

00:27:55

James Redenbaugh: Tell me about the triquetra.

00:27:59

Devin Martin: So. So the original book that I started to write, which is kind of embedded in this book, was a book about decision making. And I think of the body or the. A human being as having three processing centers, basically, like the gut, the head, and the heart. And they correlate with, like, instinct, intellect, and intuition. And so it's like I feel, I think and I know. I mean, I have like, another giant table and, you know, and this. This gets into, like, first person, second person, third person. Like, it's. It's very much in that realm. And I. So I was searching for, like, what is a symbol that is weaving those three together, and I stumbled across the triquetra. And I was like, oh, that's so interesting. It's just. It is this.

00:28:47

Devin Martin: And then I was like, oh, how do I make it with four quadrants? Which I don't know if I care about or not, but it was interesting. And I didn't find a really beautiful version I liked, but, yeah, I'm drawn to that. I'm drawn to that. Those. That. That. Those three streams weaving together.

00:29:08

James Redenbaugh: Beautiful. Yeah. Has the three. But it's. It's made of four circles, you know.

00:29:16

Devin Martin: Oh, is it really?

00:29:18

James Redenbaugh: At least the ones I'm coming up with, you know, as the fourth.

00:29:25

Devin Martin: Oh, I'm trying. I see. I didn't even. I had the first picture there. I don't even think I had it with the circle. I found this a long time ago, and I had that file stored, that first image there. I don't remember when I first did it. I was trying to have. I asked. I asked a friend of mine who's done some design work to play with a logo. I was just trying to remember what I was asking him to work on. Oh, here it is. Oh, yeah, it's. This is literally from five years ago. I said, I'm writing a book about decision making. I'm starting to think about how the framework I'm playing with would show up in a symbol. One of the core themes is the integrating the. In instinct, the intellect, and the intuition.

00:30:11

Devin Martin: I love the way these three distinct branches are also one line. And then. Oh. I said the next element I wanted to add is action, and the next element is context. So I wanted to add like, oh, here we go. I actually drew on the drawing, so I. I was. Let me see or I can't it on myself view. So I was. It's funny. I drew a bigger circle, and then I was showing arrows, and I was like, how do we make this, like, moving? A sense of movement and then a sense of, like, within a context or somehow? So, yeah, so that. That was back from then. And I've always just liked that. That imagery and how it ties those. Those three things together in my mind. And then obviously, like, the yin yang is, like, this beautiful polarity and balance.

00:31:07

Devin Martin: Such a, like, perfect symbol for so many things. And then the spiral is very much like, kind of like that cascading series of A's, just this feeling that our. Our perspective is always evolving, but it also includes this polarity. It tends to just, like, oscillate back and forth. Everything that comes up, the opposite comes up. And I just love the spiral, you know, spiraling out. There's growth. It feels like repetition at times. You know, there's. There's embedded cycles that repeat, and yet it is going somewhere. Somewhere. There is novelty in it, you know?

00:31:49

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. What if there was a form that could be seen as a kind of scientific diagram? Maybe it's a. A molecular structure or a quantum particle or. Or something like that. But it could also be seen as a. As a religious icon. Maybe a religious person looks at it and sees, like, oh, that's a sacred.

00:32:22

Devin Martin: That's a sacred shape.

00:32:24

James Redenbaugh: But a scientist looks at it, and they're like, oh, that's a beautiful Adam. And then the more you look at it, the more layers come through.

00:32:35

Devin Martin: I love that. And that. That gets to the kind of provocative thing. Did I show you? So that. That. That designer. He's an old friend, Owen, he did a t. He did a T shirt design for me. I don't know if you've seen that. The transpartisan. So, like, here, I'm gonna send you a link. I. I looked it up, like, when I first made a Facebook profile, which is whatever, 20 years ago, and, you know, it says, like, Republican, Democrat. There was, like, a political affiliation. And I just wrote transpartisan. I'm sure I got it from an integral person somewhere. And so then I. I got. When trans started becoming this thing that it was about gender. I was very. I was like, there's a million things that I don't want to be binary about, like, why do you get to own trans?

00:33:29

Devin Martin: And so I made these T shirts which I wear around, which just from. The idea is, from a distance, you see trans with a rainbow, and you're like, oh, he's transgender. I love him. And then up close, it says transpartisan, and they Go like, wait, what? Or you go, ooh, he's transgender. I hate him. And then you get close. You're like, oh, what the fuck is this? I don't know what this means. This is. Now I have to think about it. And so I like things like that. That, like, I like what you're doing with the. The science and the religious icon. I'm happy to be misunderstood if it creates cognitive dissonance. Like, to me, cognitive dissonance is one of the greatest tools we have for transformation.

00:34:09

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. Yeah. And actually reminded of this thing. I'll share. I made this when I was 19, so.

00:34:23

Devin Martin: Oh, wow.

00:34:24

James Redenbaugh: 16 years ago now. And it's back when I would. Was really. I really thought I could figure out reality. I was exploring these, you know, getting into these different domains and, you know, starting my career, college journey, and learning a lot through that, but then also getting into philosophy and psychology and psychedelics and meditation and enlightenment. And I was like, there's a. There's a pattern here. And. And. And I can figure it out. There's all these synchronicities of how these things line up. And so my. My friend and I mapped it all out, and then I forgot about it for. For 16 years. And I'm kind of coming back to it and being like, oh, maybe there's something here. But what I. What I wanted to share about the. The. The diagram is it. It creates this whole mandala.

00:35:27

James Redenbaugh: And we could look at it this way with the science view and then also look at it, this mystical view.

00:35:36

Devin Martin: It's almost like positive versus negative space.

00:35:39

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. But you don't get the whole picture until you see both of them together.

00:35:49

Devin Martin: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's cool. Was this before or after finding Wilbur?

00:35:57

James Redenbaugh: This was. I was. Was definitely familiar with Wilbur, but I hadn't read many of his books at that point. I don't have the quadrants in here. I don't have. I don't have a lot of things. I don't have stages. It was more a mapping of. Of the domains of life.

00:36:30

Devin Martin: Yeah. Yeah. And. And have you since rejected that kind of attempt or just, like, given up, or is it evolved and changed?

00:36:47

James Redenbaugh: Both. I know that the. The reality is so much greater than my meat brain can hold, and there's so many more dimensions that a 2D representation will. Will only go so far. But I do know there are patterns that can be found that are obvious from a certain perspective, but also seem to be occluded to most of us most of the time. Like, they're right there. And we don't want to look at them. Yeah, like synchronicities. Once you start opening up to them, they become more and more obvious, but most people don't notice them. And if they do, it's like, that's a funny. That's a funny coincidence. But then you have things that are so far beyond coincidence. Like the Devons in Taos.

00:37:56

Devin Martin: Yeah.

00:37:57

James Redenbaugh: Like, how do you. How do you explain that? So it's like I can quest to try to understand it all, but I'm always gonna be a little pinky or a little hair on a much bigger organism that I'm in relationship with, you know, and if we as the bigger organism want to kind of articulate the unarticulated or uncover the esoteric, you know, make the esoteric exoteric, then. Then we will. But if we don't, my. My little mind isn't going to be successful at pushing that through. Does that make sense?

00:39:04

Devin Martin: Yeah, yeah. I think it's. It's in many ways the big crisis breakthrough of my book. So I'll. I'll send you. I mean, you can read it or send it through ChatGPT or whatever, but I, I have a. The book proposal is like a very brief intro and then the first few chapters. And the first chapter, technically is like before the first chapter is. There's an allegory I wrote. And I don't know what the fuck happened. I went over to write one day and I slipped into an altered state and I wrote this thing which was just. I thought I was going to write very literal stuff, and it just came out whole, and I was like vibrating the whole time. And I was like, what the fuck is this? And then I was like, oh, this is my entire book.

00:39:50

Devin Martin: This is what I'm trying to communicate in a symbolic form. I'm just going to stick it at the beginning of the book and people are going to go, huh, what does this have to do with anything? And then they'll read the book. And so maybe that's interesting. And then, and then the intro chapter is a flash forward to a series of nightmares I had where. And I just put together the timeline. I grew up in my bedroom, like one bedroom, my whole life, went off to college, dropped out of college after two years. And I think it's exactly how it happened. I came back home and I temporarily lived in my bedroom. And I started having these crazy nightmares. So I had gone off and done psychedelics and started to really explore exist, you know, philosophy and Spirituality, at least in an academic sense.

00:40:33

Devin Martin: And then I came home to the place where I used to lay in bed and ruminate for five hours a night, just like being abused by my rational mind. And I woke up in the middle of the night in a panic attack. Like running around splashing water in my face, going outside doing push ups. Like I've never had a panic attack before. Like the feeling that like if I could just die quickly it would be so much better than what I'm going through. And it was hard. And the dream that caused it was complete abstraction. There was no story, there was no character, there was no time. And the only way I've ever been able to describe it was. Imagine if the entire history of the universe was two processes. And you relate to them the way you relate to like your children.

00:41:17

Devin Martin: Like these are the most important. Like this is like everything in your life. This is like the thing you've been put all of your love into. And this one moment in time, these two processes are supposed to meet and merge. And it's like falling in love and becoming one. And all these beautiful things and they don't sum. It's just like they, the math doesn't work. And I started to think of it as the death rattle of my rational mind. My entire life I had built a worldview and tried to figure everything out logically. And I did crazy amounts of math in my head. I was really good at math. It was so easy. Computer programming was so easy.

00:41:52

Devin Martin: When I was exposed to it, science made all this sense and I just felt like everything had to go through this filter to be real, to exist. And then I had all these crazy experiences which clearly did not fit in there. And then I came home and it was like, oh, that part of my brain was woken up. Okay, here we go, let's make sense of it. And it was like, not that I can't make sense of it, but you can't. It never. The world is weirder than we ever could know. Like no amount of frameworks, like they're cute, they're neat, they're fun, they're interesting, I like them, I want to do more of them. But fundamentally they kill me. They if I try to reduce myself to them, the essence is left out, the meaning is left out, the ineffable is left out.

00:42:38

Devin Martin: And so I went through a series of these nightmares before I finally like turned towards them and kind of embraced them and they resolved. But it did feel like this, like, yeah, this whatever 20 year old, 18 year old self 20, trying to think, like, there's a thing. I'll find that thing and it'll all make sense and we'll be done, you know, and now I'm like, oh, no, that's actually just a fun way to play. And as long as you hold it's fucking beautiful. Like, there's a lot of beauty there. And it's a finger pointing towards the moon. I get it. It's great. I wanna. I want that finger.

00:43:12

James Redenbaugh: I actually got these around the same time. A little later, I got a hexagon and a circle because I was like that. That's it. There are the. There are these two things, you know, like, maybe it's letting go of everything and striving to be as. As great as I can be, you know, or evolution and enlightenment, or like, matter and pattern, which stir the same roots of mater and pater, mother and father. That's. That's the cosmos. These are the two things I need to remember every day when I wake up. And, And I'm going to put them right here. So I see them. And it took me a few years to remember they were one. It's, you know, they are also one. There are these two things, and they're also one. And whether that's everything or not, I'm always going to between them.

00:44:14

James Redenbaugh: I'm always going to be playing between them. And my capacity to understand them is also them. And that thing. You know, this body's always made of matter, and it's always going to be evolving through patterns. And my ability to. To cognize that is also. Is also that. And so there's a kind of nihilist path that I could take of, like, oh, well, then nothing matters anyway, or there's a deep, you know, acceptance and surrender into that. And I'm still, you know, I still love these tattoos and they still remind me of, you know, to either not take myself more seriously or push myself a little harder. But really the thing to do is to. To do both of those things and in every breath and to stay open and, you know, use my mind to try to understand the world.

00:45:23

James Redenbaugh: But, like, let it be an organ in a bigger system. Let it be one part of my body and let my body be one part of something bigger. You know, part of a team, part of a group, part of a conversation. Anyway, you know, it's funny, I. I.

00:45:41

Devin Martin: Have two tattoos, both. Both on my forearms to remind me of something that I don't want to forget. And so I, I have Music, Japanese kanji. It's basically fun with noise. And then I have a dove, which my whole arm is surrounded by this kind of Celtic, kind of tribal. I wanted aggression because I was angry person when I was young. I was super angry and I finally had the realization that all anger comes out of love. You can only get upset if something you love feels threatened. And actually anger is a form of. It's masking vulnerability. And so I wanted to remember when I met angry people, like there's a tender something in there that feels threatened. And if I can make that feel safe, we can break through this.

00:46:27

Devin Martin: And also to honor my own anger is like, sometimes it's really fucking good. Like, I'm going to take care of something.

00:46:33

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. Eros.

00:46:35

Devin Martin: Yeah.

00:46:36

James Redenbaugh: Action.

00:46:37

Devin Martin: And so it's funny, like, people look at me in a T shirt and they're like, oh, he must be all tatted up. And I'm like, no, I just have two. I just, I wanted them visible. I didn't want hidden tattoos.

00:46:48

James Redenbaugh: Beautiful. Yeah. I always feel a kinship with folks with. With two foreign tattoos. That's awesome. And yours remind me of another dialectic I love dyad of play and prayer.

00:47:10

Devin Martin: I never thought, I never heard that.

00:47:12

James Redenbaugh: The, the. Ultimately my purpose in life, what I want to do with my whole life. And it'll express itself at. Differently at different ages, but I want to build temples and playgrounds and I want them to be the same as well, you know, I want the temples to be playgrounds and I want the playgrounds to be temples and I want to co. Create villages that have both of those things, you know, everywhere. Because, you know, that's.

00:47:47

James Redenbaugh: I studied architecture and those are the two architectural, I don't know, things that reconnect us to what's most important, you know, I think adult, as adults, we need to remember how to play with other adults and play with kids and learn from the kids and move our bodies in ways that are not so flat, you know, climb stuff and embody characters and go down the slide, you know, and lose ourselves.

00:48:23

Devin Martin: It's my two sons too, because one of them is like, he would come home crying from school at 7 being like, Daddy, nobody's serious. Nobody wants to have a real conversation. Like. And he was talking about like reincarnation and the founding of the universe. And like, you know, he was just so. And then my other son's like, dad, you know, we're just alive so we can have fun, right? I'm like, yeah, you're right. You're right. Like, but we would be out scootering, and my. My younger son would be like, let's meditate. And he'd sit and, like, start meditating. And I'd be like, lev, do you want to meditate? And he'd be like, I'm a movement person. Like, yeah, you are.

00:49:03

James Redenbaugh: That's awesome.

00:49:04

Devin Martin: Yeah, I love that. I've never. I've never thought of that, but I do love that poll. And yeah, they're the two. The two places that connect us with, you know, what we're here to do, and the two places that you could technically design an entire city and leave out and be like, I know every. We can survive. It's perfect. We're fine.

00:49:22

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, yeah. They shouldn't. They shouldn't be extra. They should be.

00:49:27

Devin Martin: No.

00:49:29

James Redenbaugh: Like, utilities.

00:49:32

Devin Martin: You know that. So this is another conversation which I feel like I'm pulled into and taking part of, and I had a big vision of in my last psychedelic journey. And I feel like I know people who are doing it, but it's not my work. But this idea of, like, what is the third space where. Where do we go when we don't go to church? You know, and it's. I feel like the de facto answer for the scientific community. I don't know if this is my table is. Is the bar. You know, it's like, where do you go to feel the Holy Spirit? Where do you go to feel for spirit? Yeah, you drink spirits or. Or you go to church. But I'm like, I know this.

00:50:06

Devin Martin: The people I work with, the people who I feel like are evolving out of those two things, are like, I don't know. I'm lonely. I have a dinner party. But like, where do you see the same people repeatedly who have shared values and who call forth the best parts of yourself, and they're like, work, you know, like, that's the answer. It's like, I go to work or I go to the bar. That's it. But, like, that's not the sacred, and it's not. Not play. And so, like, when I had. When I played in bands, that was the place. It was like, oh, we have band practice every week and we get together and it's. It's such a sacred, such a playful space. It is so silly and so, like, it's the place where you up.

00:50:48

Devin Martin: So you can learn, you know, like, you go there and you make mistakes, but then we, like, you write a song with somebody and like, there isn't a more intimate, vulnerable, sacred feeling for me than co writing a song with somebody like that is some of the best experience. Like, that's like, you know, it's like sexual level of intimacy for me. And so. But like, then I think, oh, that's what we used to do. Communities used to come together and play music. Music wasn't something you observed, it was something you did in community.

00:51:15

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, yeah. Often around a fire.

00:51:20

Devin Martin: Yeah. And so I wonder what that looks like in a city, you know, or. Or whatever. In beacon, I have 16, 18, 000 people here. Like my. My wife leads a monthly singing circle of women.

00:51:34

James Redenbaugh: Beautiful.

00:51:34

Devin Martin: Yeah. It's amazing. And they'll like howl at the moon and they'll dance and they'll take turns singing and they'll chant. And I think that's the closest I've seen to like a modern, really beautiful version of this, like, new. There's no, you know, there's no real mythology or dogma or, you know, they'll call in the indigenous spirits maybe, or they'll, you know, they'll play with this energy or this goddess or that energy. But it's all just kind of like, I don't know, let's bring this into the room and see how that plays out.

00:52:07

James Redenbaugh: You know Bobby McFerrin?

00:52:09

Devin Martin: Yeah, yeah.

00:52:11

James Redenbaugh: He was my next door neighbor growing up. I was friends with his daughter. Yeah, he would drive us to school. But he gets. Gets people. When he does these shows, he gets people into these altered states singing together, you know, small groups, large groups. And he's. He's so spiritual. Like, he would. I'd see him every day reading the Bible, walking up and down the driveway. We shared a driveway, really. He's just steeped in. In spirit. And he would never really talk about it. And it wasn't like his music wasn't explicitly spiritual, but I think people were having these spiritual experiences being with him without. Without realizing it. Just through. Through music and expressing themselves and hearing each other. It's really beautiful.

00:53:11

Devin Martin: Yeah. My wife. My wife Hannah's always been. She. She grew up much more Jewish than I grew up Jewish. More like traditional, religious Jewish. And when we're looking for a community, she always wants a Jewish community. And she'll just reject this one and that one. I'm like, what is it? She's like, oh, it's not the right melod. It's like, it's like 90% the music for her. Like she has to feel spirit through music. Or she's like, no, that's not my. Like, I don't really. I was like, oh, do you like what the rabbi said? She's like, oh, I don't know. I didn't really. Whatever, I don't care.

00:53:41

James Redenbaugh: Amazing. Amazing. So, coming back to the brand here, I think that an exercise I'd like. We're going to meet again on Saturday. Between now and then, I'd love to start to do some mood boarding so we can look at some stuff together. I want to bring in images that are kind of the. Of the science domain, others that are kind of the spirit religious domain. It'd be awesome to look at, like, Islamic patterns and, you know, rose windows from cathedrals and little details like that we might pull from, not only for the logo, but also thinking about textures, icons on the website, those little.

00:54:37

Devin Martin: Details, that idea, the stained glass window. That's the first time I've seen color in this that made sense. I like that.

00:54:47

James Redenbaugh: We haven't talked about it, but I keep thinking about light and seeing images of light and like, how can we play with light and use light as a metaphor because it's so potent and relevant. In every religious tradition, they're always honoring the light. You know, whether they go back to the moon or the sun, it's all. It's all. It all goes back to light. And. And it's such a relevant science metaphor as well. And such a beautiful.

00:55:21

Devin Martin: Yeah, yeah, I love that too. And yeah, I wonder if there's something with like a. A prism, like reflecting, refracting through something and refracting.

00:55:34

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, yeah, that's what I was going to say. I was seeing, like the Pink Floyd.

00:55:40

Devin Martin: Yeah.

00:55:41

James Redenbaugh: Kind of thing, but, you know, not so. Not so cliche as that.

00:55:48

Devin Martin: And I wonder what happens if light hits a. Hits a prism and becomes religion and spirituality. I mean, and science and something else.

00:56:03

James Redenbaugh: I'd love for the aesthetic elements on the website and the website as a whole to create in the user a sense that more is possible than what they previously thought, you know, to kind of prime them to shift their perspective. So I don't want it to feel like something they've seen before, but we also don't want it to feel like something completely new and like, what's going on here and how do I navigate.

00:56:39

Devin Martin: Yeah. And. And that's the point of the allegory at the beginning of my book, I realized was just so like, you read it through a little bit different of a lens of like, there's something else going on here than what I'm initially getting on the literal surface.

00:56:54

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. Wonderful and excited to read that.

00:57:02

Devin Martin: And I definitely, like, it's really important to me that we show, not tell a developmental journey. Like, the feeling I want people to get is, oh, you're right, I am always changing. Everything I believe is malleable. I can let go of this, and I can be curious about that, and I can be with somebody who's different and hold it all a little bit lighter and find the commonality more and recognize we're all on a journey. Like, I want, I really want people to just over and over again come on the podcast and talk about how they've changed. And so everyone's just like, oh, yeah, of course we all change. Like, there is no fixed. I was born into this. I have to cling to this. Like, if the only result of this is that people go, oh, we're all. It's all beautiful.

00:57:55

Devin Martin: It's all fine, and I can let it go at any moment, and I can play with what's next. I don't care. We figure out what's next. You know, I just want people to, like, feel like they're on that. They're, they're, they're a process. They're more of a being than a fixed entity.

00:58:11

James Redenbaugh: Beautiful.

00:58:12

Devin Martin: You know, it's what happens. I mean, if we're being honest, I, I want to usher in an integral stage of development so everybody can be, you know, better able to honor diversity in the. And nurture development. You know, I think that's required if we're gonna right the ship, so to speak, and not. Not burn the house down, I think.

00:58:35

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, yeah. What about the stages beyond that?

00:58:42

Devin Martin: Yeah, I mean that. And that's why I like this one. A where it's like, oh, you can kind of vaguely see what came before. And now we're talking about these two stages. Theism, atheism. And we can tell there's like, more after that. And it also gets lighter and more diffuse, which is what seems to happen at the later stages is everything you cling to seems to get less concrete and less, you know, it becomes more symbolic and, you know, non, dual. Non, dual realization. This is the one challenging thing that I feel like Ken has flip flopped on. At first, spirituality was like a later stage of development in his. In his initial work, kind of like the Richard Rohr thing. And then he was like, oh, no, no. Spirituality is infused through every stage of development. Your view on spirituality changes.

00:59:27

Devin Martin: But now, you know, but now he's saying, oh, actually, when you get into these Late second stage, early whatever. Maybe third tier. Spirituality is actually kind of a requirement. Like, you can't be at Teal and turquoise without some type of satori. It seems like you have to have some sense of the boundary between self and other dissolving. You know, it almost like spirituality becomes infused into everything, into your scientific endeavors, into your relationships, into your play. And so I think. I think the light is a beautiful metaphor for that because shines through and it gets changed and stuck and, you know, becomes the thing it shines into at the same time.

01:00:18

James Redenbaugh: Yeah.

01:00:20

Devin Martin: Yeah. I wonder if the light should be going through a prism and being broken into disparate parts or like going into a plant and helping it grow, you know? Yeah. And I love shadow. For me, my personal journey to the light has been through darkness. And like, I don't know. I don't know if you've ever. If you have you paid much attention to Jordan Peterson.

01:00:47

James Redenbaugh: Huh?

01:00:48

Devin Martin: So I, I think, met him. You met him, all right. So I. I think he's a fascinating. I think his mind is. He's one of the most eloquent human beings on the planet. Like, I love to hear him argue with people and eviscerate him because he's so fierce and well researched. But my. But. But I also told everybody, all my clients who got into him, to be very careful, like, judge the tree by the fruit that it bears. And he appears miserable and angry all the time, and we have to wonder why. And my personal belief is that he has been standing on the edge of the abyss his entire life, wanting to dive in and trying to rationalize his way out of it. And I don't think he actually understands that emptiness is fullness.

01:01:31

Devin Martin: I don't think he understands that in the darkness is the light.

01:01:35

James Redenbaugh: Yeah.

01:01:36

Devin Martin: Stuck in his rational brain. He hasn't experientially surrendered and merged and experienced unity consciousness. And for me, that, like, if I did anything right, as I almost killed myself for many years and tried to destroy my brain for many years, is. I just kept staring into the darkness. Like when I was offered Prozac, I said, fuck you. I don't want happiness. I want truth. You know, oh, this is something else. That's maybe just telling of my personality. I was telling the story over the weekend when you just made it spiral. It reminded me for.

01:02:11

James Redenbaugh: For years.

01:02:12

Devin Martin: Speaking about tattoos, I was obsessed. I wanted to get a tattoo my. My entire back that was the Star of David blended with a swastika. And it was that same thing of, like, everybody would love me or hate me by based on what they saw first and it would reveal something about them. I realized I would probably end up stabbed in the back on the beach somewhere and found for dead. And I'm grateful. I didn't do it. I didn't. I honestly didn't get it because I couldn't figure out the graphic design. And it was only a couple years ago I saw somebody had actually solved how to put 4 and 6 in a beautiful pattern that I was like, oh, my God, if I saw that 15 years ago, I would have fucking tattooed and I would be dead now.

01:02:53

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. Yeah, Interesting.

01:03:04

Devin Martin: That's both shadow and light and an infinite journey. And.

01:03:11

James Redenbaugh: I think that the. The A path is one. One that we can follow for sure. We can call it option A and then. I love that. What's it called? The. Try.

01:03:36

Devin Martin: I don't know if I ever heard somebody say the word before.

01:03:39

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, put this in here.

01:03:56

Devin Martin: Does Adobe do a great job of integrating AI into a design process.

01:04:04

James Redenbaugh: Like.

01:04:05

Devin Martin: In a generative sense?

01:04:07

James Redenbaugh: In Illustrator, there is a generative tool, but I never use it. It's like, it's always. It basically just generates an image and then converts it to a vector. But if I want to do that, I would generate it in whatever's best for the image and then bring it in and convert that to a vector. Photoshop is amazing because you can select, you know, any selection you can do a generative fill on. So if I want to remove something from an image or somebody's holding a cat and I want it to be a dog, I can do that. And it's. It's pretty good. So I think the trifor is something like this.

01:05:01

Devin Martin: Yeah.

01:05:09

James Redenbaugh: And then you mentioned what would it look like with four. You know, it. It basically becomes an icky guy.

01:05:22

Devin Martin: Yeah. Yeah, I definitely don't like the four as much.

01:05:47

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, there's something in. Just leave the outer circles in there. There's other options we can pursue, including the question mark. You know, I think what you said about holding a. This space of not knowing and being the reason why you're best for this job is. Is really important, you know, and whether it's the logo or. Or something else. I think just playing with a question mark could be interesting. This one's kind of half question mark, half exclamation point.

01:06:48

Devin Martin: Yeah. Which is like, you know, which makes sense because I'm kind of. Nothing gets. I read, you know, I've read a thousand books just waiting for that, like 20 times. I get the aha moment. You know, it's just like something clicks and that is kind of like the question mark turning into the exclamation mark for me. It is, it is. It would be an interesting animation too. Like the question into the. The. The straight certainty of the exclamation. The like locking into objectivity or science or logic and then like kind of movie. UV groovy, weird. Like, I don't know, man, let's play. Let's like.

01:07:39

James Redenbaugh: Yeah.

01:07:44

Devin Martin: And yeah, and then what about this, like, symbol? That is science. That is a molecule maybe, and a religious icon.

01:07:55

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. I spell molecule.

01:08:08

Devin Martin: I think so.

01:08:09

James Redenbaugh: I'm a terrible speller.

01:08:11

Devin Martin: I think it's E. Right?

01:08:15

James Redenbaugh: It doesn't look great, but that's fine.

01:08:18

Devin Martin: Yeah, that's right. Molecule.

01:08:20

James Redenbaugh: Molecule.

01:08:25

Devin Martin: You know, and I guess it would. The other thing that's like on the nose, but maybe that's a good thing, is people get it is the wave particle.

01:08:35

James Redenbaugh: Yeah.

01:08:39

Devin Martin: I do feel like this is. I'm, I'm. I'm almost loath to use the word quantum ever. And I categorically reject anybody who's a coach or a healer or anything in that realm that uses the word. It's become like an allergy for me because it's the word that people use when they don't understand it. It seems like, you know, like I think Joe Dispenza's meditation techniques are phenomenal when people do them. But when I hear him explain why they work, I want to choke him. But. But I am getting dragged into this world of like actual quantum physicists who are exploring consciousness. And this guy, Federico F. Is my new favorite and he has a theory on why AI will never be conscious. And it comes down to a lack of coherence.

01:09:31

Devin Martin: Essentially, transistors are only relating to one another at the classical level, whereas neurons and living things are sharing information in the quantum realm. So it's, it's wave pre collapse into particle. The resonance is happening and that, that realm is private and you might even say infinite. It is, you know, it is the realm of meaning as opposed to the realm of symbol. And so he's basically like, transistors can trade symbols, but they can never trade meaning. And so everything is collapsed, whereas in a human, in any living form. So basically it's like the level of complexity in a rock is so much better than a computer could ever be. So much more complex. When you, when you take in the coherence that can exist between whatever quarks or protons or anything And I. And I.

01:10:22

Devin Martin: That has given me a new appreciation, like hearing, you know, and this is the guy who invented computers. He's responsible for silicone gate transistors and touchscreen technology. And, like, he's one of the greatest engineering minds alive as far as computer. And then he had this spontaneous awakening. He felt light exploding out of his chest, and he realized he was one with all things. And then he spent the next 15, 20 years obsessing about consciousness. And wow, he's just got a fascinating perspective.

01:10:55

James Redenbaugh: Amazing.

01:11:02

Devin Martin: So, yeah, the spiral. Yeah, I like the spiral. It is something I like. I like the optical illusion of something that can, like, pull you in or look like it's emerging out as well. When you're thinking of design, are you thinking. I mean, I feel like I know the answer, but, like, what's your. Go to context. Do you picture, like, a website banner, a business card, you know, on a billboard? Is. Do you, like, do you think about how it's gonna change? Or is it one thing everywhere? Or, like, how do you think about something that. Like, how specific should we be thinking about the context versus how this should be a universal symbol that could fit in any context?

01:12:25

James Redenbaugh: In the beginning, we shouldn't worry too much about context, and then in the middle, we want to start playing with it in context. So the explorations around the logo form often yield a lot of other things that we end up using elsewhere. And it's kind of in the beginning. We want it to be divergent. We want to explore a lot of possibilities. And then we distill it down. So we may have a really complicated idea for a logo. And then it. And then we find the essence of it. So if it was a shape like this, you know, it. It's not going to look great at all. At all scales if it's a. Yeah. Business card or something like that. But there may be something in there that. That brings us to the final product.

01:13:22

Devin Martin: Okay. Oh, yeah. I should send you my brand guide for my initial coaching design. Yeah, that might be interesting. I would say that the two colors that I've always been drawn to, and I think they're in there are. I'm. I'm a big fan of, like, warning cone orange, like super bright, whatever second chakra, whatever you want to call it, like, really vibrant orange. And then something in the, like, lighter than royal blue, maybe a little darker than sky blue, like aquamarine. I don't know. Somewhere in there, those are two colors I seem consistently drawn to.

01:14:14

James Redenbaugh: Wonderful.

01:14:15

Devin Martin: Yeah. So I guess they're. I would Say. Yeah, they're in here. Maybe even a slightly lighter blue than I have in here. Yeah, let me send you. Yeah, she wrote blue, grounded orange, sun, joy, black, blue roots, tertiary accent. Color was a light blue sky. Yeah. So her thing. I don't know how you work, but her thing was like, let's get the shape first and we'll worry about colors later.

01:15:02

James Redenbaugh: Are you sharing that?

01:15:03

Devin Martin: Yeah, hold on. I'm just gonna make it away. Let me see design. Do you want the EPS and PDF might be helpful.

01:15:22

James Redenbaugh: Yes.

01:15:23

Devin Martin: Okay. All right. Just emailed you. Yeah. What is the date on this?

01:15:50

James Redenbaugh: Well.

01:16:08

Devin Martin: Is this a standard kind of. I don't know if you have it yet. A standard kind of output for design guide? I guess.

01:16:21

James Redenbaugh: I don't know why it's not to. Oh, there it is.

01:16:27

Devin Martin: Probably getting scanned for viruses.

01:16:30

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. Cool.

01:16:38

Devin Martin: And I think it was. I had the four quadrants. There was something kind of flowery about it. I might have the original sketches and ideas. It has like a scarab beetle in it somehow. I very much like the vertical dimensions and the horizontal dimensions mixed with the four quadrants. I think I would do something much simpler. Now, ideally.

01:17:04

James Redenbaugh: I like the colors very integral.

01:17:15

Devin Martin: Oh yeah. I don't. I don't know if it's too much detail. I. I do have the. All the original presentation. She did like three PDF presentations where like here's a bunch of sketches based on our conversation. I'll iterate on a few of them and then I'll iterate on a few of those and then I'll iterate on the final one. Kind of. I don't know if you care about any of that.

01:17:32

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, you can share those. We can have a look at. If we're thinking about the aesthetic of the website and the brand overall.

01:17:51

Devin Martin: One.

01:17:51

James Redenbaugh: Approach can be to keep things really kind of minimalistic, streamline less as more hardline graphics, you know, using geometry and layout and white space to our advantage, only showing what's needed. That's kind of. Let's put that one side of the spectrum, other side of the spectrum, let's make it really rich. Let's make it feel like a enlightened manuscript. Let's, you know, use AI to generate some really awesome images that feel sacred and scientific for each domain and have, you know, a rich background texture and light. Light coming through the window and, you know, a font that feels handmade and that would be the other side of the spectrum. And then of course, there's lots of possibilities in between. Where. Where on that spectrum do you think we should aim? Do you have a hit on that?

01:19:01

Devin Martin: So I, I would have 100% said super simple, iconic, like just symbolic almost up until you said stained glass window. And then there's an image I'm trying to get in my. There's something in my head that's like I've seen somewhere and I, I can't. I'm trying to think about how to describe it. It's, it's. It's almost, it's not quite pixelated. It's. It's more like. Like if. If a human being was turned into a stained glass window and had, you know, primary colors, maybe set maybe five, six, seven colors.

01:19:44

James Redenbaugh: Yeah.

01:19:44

Devin Martin: Or maybe this. Maybe it is just like saying using stained glass. You know, it's interesting. My mother briefly, when I was young, I think she used to make stained glass art, which is interesting for somebody who's totally an atheist.

01:20:02

James Redenbaugh: Yeah.

01:20:08

Devin Martin: But yeah, I'm seeing like reds and blues and stained glass here. I'll share. It's the easiest way to do that. Can I, can you drag and drop an image into the chat here?

01:20:31

James Redenbaugh: I'm not sure you can click the file button and upload a file.

01:20:33

Devin Martin: Oh, is there a file button? Okay. Transfer of JPEG files. You restricted by your account admin.

01:20:46

James Redenbaugh: You can just email it to me.

01:20:48

Devin Martin: Okay. Yeah, and this is just something I randomly found, but they're actually probably easier to do a link. But yeah, so that is, I, I think all of a sudden changing my mind on what might be. I might, I might tend to be a little too austere, a little too dead if you let me. And I could probably use like a little playful life, messiness, feminine push.

01:21:39

James Redenbaugh: Mm. Yeah. I wonder if there's a, an art style that we could arrive at that could also be used for things like thumbnails for the podcast and illustrations. You know, we haven't gotten into content yet, but we, I would suggest pairing words with the right images to hit both sides of the brain. And if we have a consistent image style through the brand, that can be really nice and powerful. And these days it's easier than ever to create really high quality artifacts in a consistent style that communicate whatever content we want. You know, if we want a detailed rendering of the Newton's prism in the style of a Renaissance master, you know, incorporating a certain geometry, we can accomplish that pretty easily now.

01:23:23

Devin Martin: Sorry, this just popped in my head when you were talking to David Data has a. There's a clip of him on YouTube at a conf. At some kind of workshop where he's talking about the three types of. I think he's basically talking about sex. But you could.

01:23:38

James Redenbaugh: You could.

01:23:38

Devin Martin: You could apply this to anything. And he's using a. He's like, there's. When sex becomes therapy, which is basically when you're looking at the pane of glass and you're saying, oh, it has a crack in it, and I'm going to fix this crack. And then there's sex that's like yoga, where you're like, I'm going to polish this glass to be as translucent so the light just shines straight through it. And I can be a clear channel for the light. And then he goes. And then there's sex of spirituality, where you just realize, I am the light and I'm beautiful. I'm loving the, like, fractured nature of stained glass and how, like, it looks like a bunch of separate pieces that are actually one thing. And we can become quite fragmented in the process of.

01:24:26

Devin Martin: You know, this is like the particles thing of, like, trying to dissect everything into its parts. But I also like the way it changes the light when it. You know, like, we're all broken parts of God and light shines through us, and that's how we know ourself. You know, it's. We are a unique. We're not pure light. We're weird and creaky and unique and special and fragmented. And that's the fun of it. And so I'm. I'm enjoying that. That as a metaphor, too. Is that your wife?

01:25:00

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, my fiance.

01:25:01

Devin Martin: Oh, nice.

01:25:06

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, wonderful. I feel. I feel like we should touch on content for the website. Thinking about structure. I can share more. I can give you homework on that as well, to start thinking about organizing content into the structure of the website. But do you have a sense off the bat of where to. Where to start with that, what you're thinking about in terms of pages?

01:25:46

Devin Martin: Yeah, I mean, the initial website, I think, is. Is about the podcast. I. I don't know if the book will be a separate page on this website at some point or its own separate world. So I think the main thing is, like, a place to go to get the podcast episodes. And then I think the other main thing is I will probably write a blog post. I want to be writing about each episode. I want to somehow condense each episode and reflect on it and put it in context and play with insights that it brings up. And so the I don't know if that's one page or a separate, like here's the episode and then here's my blog about episodes and I don't know what else. You know, I mean there's generic like about stuff that has to go somewhere.

01:26:37

Devin Martin: It would make sense if you can link to my website somewhere of the coach, but I don't really care. It might be nice to just let this exist as its own thing, let people figure it out. I'm torn there.

01:26:50

James Redenbaugh: Yeah.

01:26:50

Devin Martin: I'm not viewing this as a self promotional thing in any way other than like if I can build a big platform, the book will get out more.

01:26:59

James Redenbaugh: Awesome. I think that the way that we present the podcast and blog is an opportunity to kind of invent our own medium because it combines audio and visual and writing and, and are you going to release the video?

01:27:30

Devin Martin: Yeah, I, what I'm thinking is like getting a really robust content strategy of everything exists. In every podcast app there's a YouTube channel which is every full episode. And then maybe this is where the stained glass, you know, it gets cut up into shorts and goes on TikTok and Instagram and YouTube shorts. Like I want to just, like, I want to have a very specific, regimented, like there's 12 shorts from each video and they go up every two days on all these plat. I don't want to just like figure that out and how to pull the clips will be an art, you know, like what I just assume people, my guests will say beautiful, compelling things and then it'll naturally lend itself. And then I think also like there will be longer, more playful like B roll edited together, splicing, maybe a big documentary.

01:28:18

Devin Martin: Like I think they're this stuff. Like the individual guests should play well together. If I want to go later on, like, okay, here's a theme on sacred spaces and the five different people speak about, you know, like, I, I think there's going to be a lot of opportunities to play, but I, I kind of feel like I resist marketing in general, but I should do this full on, just play the marketing game, make the size content people want and flood, you know, the Internet with it.

01:28:49

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. And then when people want to go deeper, you know, and really absorb the full episode, dive into the written content that's there. There's an app called Frame. You can put the episode on there and you know, collaborate on comments, you know, using a comment system, noting, you know, let's make a clip out of this section here that makes it really easy to Delegate that kind of thing. You know, let's edit the full video with this here. Let's add, you know, a title thing here. Let's add a, an image of this thing that this person's talking about here.

01:29:41

Devin Martin: And have you seen this? Yeah, here it is a descript. That's. Have you seen that before? You can also use descript. I think it costs more. But to translate it into other languages too, you can release.

01:29:53

James Redenbaugh: Oh cool. Adobe Premiere has a similar function feature now as well where you can edit based on the transcript.

01:30:02

Devin Martin: Oh, oh. And I. It's been a deck. It's been literally been a decade. But if you asked me 10 years ago, I would have said I am one of the world's leading experts on Adobe Audition.

01:30:11

James Redenbaugh: Oh, cool.

01:30:12

Devin Martin: I used to record bands and make DJ mixes and produce music all through. I got in use Pro Tools. I used Adobe Audition because I used Cool Edit Pro which was the company they bought and turned into Adobe Audition. So if that's so, I could see myself getting back into that and loving editing. Like I love. I used to love audio editing. Like I've made songs that are just past. I would go and record a bunch of musicians and then just fragment it up and make pastiche and just make these like sound landscapes out of it and like I love that stuff. So if I could somehow use that to edit video, that would be amazing.

01:30:46

James Redenbaugh: Are you gonna create an intro song for yourself?

01:30:50

Devin Martin: I was thinking about that. There's one piece of music that I've always thought I would use and I have to listen back and see if I actually still like it. And it's called Pantry because I literally went into the pantry one day and I popped a cork on a whiskey bottle and I was like, oh. And I made a percussion instrument out of that. And then I brought in like a violin and a couple vocalists and like a percussionist. And I just kept layering electronic beats over it. And it was. It's called. So it's still called Pantry. And I felt that and. And the one album I had professionally mastered by like a really high end mastering person which is mostly like songs with a songwriter with vocals. She heard this song and she was like, who produced this?

01:31:35

Devin Martin: And I was like, that's me. And I was like the one time I feel like I captured a sound I wanted like really well. And so I've always been like, oh, I think that might be like a. It's. It's all instrumental except for like non verbal vocals. And so I'm like I think that might be the sound, but I have to go back and listen again and see if I, I don't have an audio set up. Like I did all my auto producing on a PC and I'm purely Mac now. And so like all my hard drives and my samples and my software and everything is like in another world to me. So I could start over and just like maybe do something from scratch. But I don't feel like I've made good music in a very long time.

01:32:09

Devin Martin: So I don't know if I could make a new song right now. But yeah, I, I wrote down a name of some other song the other day. I was thinking from a friend, I have to find out what. I forget what it was off the top of my head. I was like, oh, maybe this is the, the title track. But yeah, I, I want some kind of like theme music for the podcast that's exciting.

01:32:36

James Redenbaugh: So, yeah, I think that on the site itself we could decide to have one post type that includes the podcast and the written content. Or we could give people the option, you know, here's all the video episodes, you know, browse them and then maybe there's a link to the article in each one. And on the articles there's like, here's the podcast, go check that out. But here's the written form. We can play with that. Not need to decide on that anytime soon, but the way we present these things we can have a lot of fun with.

01:33:16

Devin Martin: Yeah, give me. So my current website is nothing unique in the format. My previous website, I was, I. I did a bunch of research on all the other coaching therapy websites and decided that the only thing I was sure of was I wasn't going to do something that looked like a coaching and therapy website. And my friend ended up creating this custom theme for me in WordPress where I had like years of photography. Like I had been in Namibia and I'd been in Colombia and Panama and like there was I just all this beautiful imagery and I had little phrases that I paired with each one. And so he created a pool of those and every time you loaded the website, it would randomly select five of those. And we used a, it was like a.

01:34:00

Devin Martin: The base theme was a photography theme from, you know, just to show beautiful photos. And so when you came in it would just flash in a very slow, like these pro. These provocative questions over a beautiful image. And every single image on there was something that I took. So it felt like very Personal, like a statement of myself. And I remember being very happy that just that like whether it was good or bad, it was not, oh, another infinite scroll or, oh, another, you know, whatever. We have an upper left drop down with five selections and it felt fresh. And when people looked at it, it did like break a frame a little bit. They were like, why am I here? Oh, this is a coach. Oh, this is beautiful. This is interesting. Why is that?

01:34:38

Devin Martin: My, you know, and it was so like, I don't know, like, I feel like now the thing I see everywhere is the playing off the infinite scroll where there are no pages. It's all just one scroll. And so I don't know like how new that is, how quickly that'll feel. My, my other thought was like, it'll feel dated quickly if I do what everyone else is doing. And I want something that like lives a little longer. Like, do you have a good sense of like what's out there and what the tools are and what feels cliche? Because I don't have a good sense. Really.

01:35:06

James Redenbaugh: I do. And we take a, a different approach where we look at what. Because in webflow, anything's possible. We don't use themes, we don't use pre built stuff we can engineer from scratch, you know, basically any interface that we can think of. So we want to use convention when necessary to make sure that the site is readable and accessible and navigatable and works well on all screen sizes. And you know, even disabled people can navigate it and find what they're looking for. But then beyond that, we love to break the bounds as much as possible and do the unexpected. So, you know, instead of scrolling down, maybe we scroll up. Why not?

01:36:01

James Redenbaugh: You know, or the whole, the website flips around like that or there's, you know, different layers that kind of unfold, like pages to navigate the website, you know, or to enter a page. It feels like you're kind of zooming into a portal.

01:36:21

Devin Martin: Yeah, I was just. As you were saying that I was picturing like some combination of stained glass and fractals. You know, you click a pane and you either get sucked in or you get pulled out and you see it in context.

01:36:33

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. So I think we're going to want to pick a few key core concepts like shifting perspective or piercing through the veil or, you know, seeing beyond the layers. And then we'll find ways both aesthetically and technically to reinforce that. Ideally in.

01:37:03

Devin Martin: What if we took a computer screen and offset it with stained glass in a church. I mean, we spend our life witnessing light coming through a piece of glass. Like glass. Technology is the pinnacle of technology. There's some new crazy tech for house insulation for. They took the technology they made to make iPhone screens, which is this unbelievably robust glass, and they're turning it into home window screen glass now. And like our whole life is spent looking through glass. It seems like.

01:37:36

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. In rectangles. Yeah, it's.

01:37:41

Devin Martin: There's no circles anymore. There, there's no. I once worked. This is a random thing, but I used to do security systems and at one point I was working in two, like you know, 20 year ago, $10 million houses. Like really? Really? One was the guy who started, I think it was Yahoo. He was one of the Internet founders and he built a 10 million dollar house. And it was just the most generic boxes of boxes. And then I was simultaneously working in this older guy. I don't even know what he did. He was just a character. And his entire house was curves. There was no angles. The doors were curves, the halls were curves. I mean, like, you know, you had flat floors. But like.

01:38:17

Devin Martin: And I remember just being like, wow, the juxtaposition here is so profound at how it feels to not be in a dead square place.

01:38:29

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. I'll show you my desk. It's a mess right now, but I built this custom because I wanted to sit in a circle. And then I built this whole area over here. That's a lazy Susan. I got to adjust it because it's got too much friction right now. So if I need something that I don't have while I'm at my desk or on a call, I can just spin this around.

01:38:57

Devin Martin: Oh, that's.

01:38:58

James Redenbaugh: And then I even cut these papers so that they fit circle.

01:39:09

Devin Martin: And it just feels different. I'm sure your work is different.

01:39:12

James Redenbaugh: It's totally different. Yeah. There's my other one. I love it. And I didn't show you, but it's. It's 10ft in the other direction. So I have all this space to expand.

01:39:31

Devin Martin: Wait, so like that's curves around and.

01:39:33

James Redenbaugh: Then it's a big L shape. So on this side, you know, this is a four foot diameter circle, but then extends out in that direction another, you know, eight feet from where I am. So more linear processes I can lay them out and non linear processes I can do over there.

01:39:58

Devin Martin: Oh, that's right. I'll send you a picture. I have. It's kind of a mess right now, but I have a I don't know. 12 foot desk as well that I make custom made and I was just like, it's all linear though. But I would have loved to wrap it, have it wrap around.

01:40:12

James Redenbaugh: We're, we're renting right now in Philly because we're not sure where we want to settle like we talked about. But I, you know, I have, I can't wait to have my own house so I can just start editing it and building stuff. So in the meantime, I'm just building furniture to get my fix stuff that we can bring to the new house.

01:40:38

Devin Martin: This is, we opened up this wall and so these are floating. It's like 12ft of floating desk.

01:40:43

James Redenbaugh: Oh, cool.

01:40:44

Devin Martin: So I guess I just, I don't know if it's something about that cleanliness. I was just like, I want, I just want a desk that's just there and that one half is standing height, one half is sitting height. And I was, yeah. And it's like, it's so fucking permanent. You know, it's like there are giant metal brackets coming out of the two by fours that are put into the wood and like hidden. And there is something really nice about. I'm going to do a built in shelving over here because I have crazy amount of books that's going to like merge with this.

01:41:11

James Redenbaugh: Mine's. Mine's a sit stand. It's the biggest.

01:41:15

Devin Martin: Oh, the whole thing is.

01:41:16

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, it's the biggest one I've ever seen.

01:41:20

Devin Martin: Does it have three lifts?

01:41:23

James Redenbaugh: It does. Yeah, exactly. So the whole thing's not as stable as I would love it to because it's all on three legs. But it's stable enough. It's okay.

01:41:35

Devin Martin: Yeah. And I bet when you have a full house, you'll have like an iteration on it that'll.

01:41:39

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. And I'll have like a workbench and a wood shop when I really need to have a stable surface to work on.

01:41:46

Devin Martin: Yeah, yeah. That was the first thing I did, I think when we moved in as I built a workbench and I was like, okay, now I can move in.

01:41:53

James Redenbaugh: Awesome.

01:41:54

Devin Martin: So, so what is the next week about for me? How do I think about my time and contributing to this process in the next week before we talk again?

01:42:03

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, good question. So later today I'll have a think and I'll send you a branded questionnaire with some follow up questions, kind of some based on what we talked about, some things that we didn't talk about. And like I mentioned, you can answer the ones that inspire you to answer and the ones that don't feel relevant, you can leave be and then we can also start thinking about content and structure of the website. So it sounds like it's going to be pretty straightforward but if there's any considerations that we want to make now, we want to start thinking about.

01:42:53

Devin Martin: That, you know and just to make a note of it, email sign up, some kind of audience collection is going to be super important.

01:43:02

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. Yeah, great. Connecting that to a newsletter platform.

01:43:08

Devin Martin: Yeah, I have mailchimp now and so I don't know if.

01:43:12

James Redenbaugh: Well that's easy enough and then yeah, we can. Is also up to you what you want to have me and my team focus on this month. So. And you know what you'd like to have by the end of the month.

01:43:38

Devin Martin: Yeah, I mean for me the, I think the basic branding assets is the big focus and then like I think were talking about kind of next month would be website more but starting, you know, like doing a little bit overlaying each other. So this will be mostly locked in. Maybe it changes a little and that'll be vaguely understood and then it'll be more concrete next month.

01:43:59

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. And in the bro in the branding process we'll start to play with looking at it in context. What, what might the homepage start to look like? What kind of art assets can we play with generating if we want to go down that route. But yeah, having a solid set of brand guidelines at the end of the month is there a reasonable.

01:44:25

Devin Martin: It's different every time you look via generative AI website tech.

01:44:33

James Redenbaugh: What do you mean?

01:44:35

Devin Martin: Like let's say the, the navigation menu is a piece of stained glass and you click on a different pane to go to a different area. But it's a different animal or a different scientific molecule or different religious icon every time is that type of thing, you know, and maybe it's not infinite but it feels that way or maybe if I'm really thinking somehow reflect something back to the user about their recent search history or who they are or you know, somehow makes them feel seen.

01:45:07

James Redenbaugh: Anything is possible these days. I'll show you this.

01:45:12

Devin Martin: It'll be interesting because the other piece of glass we haven't talked about is a mirror. It'd be interesting if it somehow made you see yourself.

01:45:21

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, we're actually playing with. You need to allow camera access and things like that but really were integrating a custom Video platform into websites now. So we have one project where they want to always open room like a chapel in a temple. And so anyone that goes there can go and open the room and then anyone else can join it. So there's no facilitator, there's no scheduled event, but it's like you can go and be there with other people.

01:45:53

Devin Martin: Oh, interesting.

01:45:54

James Redenbaugh: And we can design the interface and even customize the, the background effects for people to start to get at feeling like, you know, they're not just on this website alone, but they're in there together.

01:46:09

Devin Martin: Oh, that's cool. My. I guess he's like. He's my wife's cousin. I haven't really looked at it, but he just, he has a company called Blings I.O. And they do some kind of unique video marketing content creation. So everybody's getting their own personalized video as part of the marketing campaign. I don't. It doesn't feel sacred to me. It doesn't feel that. I haven't seen anything that beautiful. But there's something. You can tell that this is emerging. This is something that's going to be out there a lot.

01:46:47

James Redenbaugh: Well, that's a neat website. I was going to show you this. This is a test I'm doing for a client and I did a bunch of generations using their logo and then I connected the inside of the logo to one mouse access and the outside of the logo to the other mouse axis. So.

01:47:13

Devin Martin: Oh, I love that as you're moving.

01:47:15

James Redenbaugh: Around.

01:47:17

Devin Martin: Changes this form and the pipes and the processes are all fast enough now that you can do this kind of stuff without lagging and load times and.

01:47:29

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, so these are just a bunch of optimized images that aren't too high resolution. And then a script goes in and take and finds the mouse image. So if you're on a really slow connection and it only loads a handful of them, it still works.

01:47:47

Devin Martin: Oh, that's cool.

01:47:49

James Redenbaugh: So it loads right away.

01:47:52

Devin Martin: So if we had a prism and your mouse moves the light and it shines through in different ways, you could do all kinds of stuff like that.

01:47:59

James Redenbaugh: It's possible. There's different ways of accomplishing that. There's something called Spline 3D. I'll show you real quick. It's a tool for basically doing anything with 3D in a web interface that's fully responsive.

01:48:25

Devin Martin: Oh, wow.

01:48:27

James Redenbaugh: So if I go to Community, I'll search for like prisms. Now, refraction and reflection is always going to be the most difficult.

01:48:42

Devin Martin: Yeah, no, I was Thinking more of a stylized than an action.

01:48:47

James Redenbaugh: But let's see what they. This is pretty cool. It's not bad. You know, for something that loads interesting.

01:49:14

Devin Martin: What does the world of websites need right now? More animation or less animation? What's your. What's your take?

01:49:21

James Redenbaugh: Just the right. It depends. I think that there's a lot of sites that are way overdone and the animation ends up being distracting and reduces conversion rates. Or it has nothing to do with the product and you're just like, why is this website doing that? But when it's. When it's done elegantly and it's integrated into a good usable design, I think it's almost necessary at this point to have a little bit of motion, a little bit of difference, something that sets you apart.

01:50:16

Devin Martin: My gut right now is saying more interactive than animated. Like transitions that move or something that reflects your movement of the mouse more than like you just sit there and it's dazzling.

01:50:30

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, yeah. Here's a website we're about to launch. When it loads, the logo draws itself. You know, these little details like you may or may notice, but maybe you notice on your third visit and you're like, wow, that's thoughtful. And then this thing is just like, it's touchable. It's a little illustration that it's like, oh, you can.

01:50:58

Devin Martin: This is not. This is not for Willow, is it?

01:51:01

James Redenbaugh: I don't know who that is.

01:51:03

Devin Martin: Okay. I just, I just reached out to an old friend from the integral world who's. I'm going to be in Austin and I was like, oh, she lives Willow. Dia. And she's working on. She was like on sabbatical and she's working on some project which is about something she said something about making the world an economy for personal. Not personal development. Hold on, let me see. Made me think of this. A well being economy. She's making a movie for a well being economy and a business around it. And I was like, oh, you might. I thought maybe you even would know her because she's from that world.

01:51:47

James Redenbaugh: No, this is a science organization studying the science of pro. Sociality. The evolutionary benefit of togetherness of we, you know, how we. We didn't evolve as distinct individuals. We evolved as. As groups and so do other species.

01:52:09

Devin Martin: Countering the survival of the fittest narrative. Kind of.

01:52:12

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, actually there's all these evolutionary traits that are. Aren't as selfish as that narrative.

01:52:24

Devin Martin: Yeah, that. That has been a shockingly impactful and damaging insight that he unleashed. And then later I believe even Darwin said this is not the primary way we evolve.

01:52:37

James Redenbaugh: Yeah. Like I think survival of the fittest is mentioned once or twice in his main treatise and he mentions love like 30 times.

01:52:47

Devin Martin: Yeah. And like that. It's amazing how work gets perverted or distorted or cherry picked or. So many people have had the think the insight they're known for and then gone on to see beyond it and the world got stuck.

01:53:03

James Redenbaugh: Yeah, definitely.

01:53:06

Devin Martin: Well this has been a ton of fun. I, I do have a, I say I, I normally wouldn't have a call right afterwards but I do today because I'm coming back from travel. But yeah, I think I have a bunch of stuff I want to send you. I'll send you like a bunch of stuff we talked about. I'll send you links and yeah, let me know if I can do more or less communicating during the week and if there's anything I should bring for next week.

01:53:25

James Redenbaugh: Sounds good. Yeah. I'll share a follow up later tonight with some more information and might invite you to a neurospace or a figma space. We can start putting things up on a board and I'll see you this weekend.

01:53:44

Devin Martin: Awesome. This has been fun. Thank you.

01:53:46

James Redenbaugh: Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed it. Have a great rest of your day and a good week.

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